The 357

[2 Dogs]

Where to start. Let’s try this. I often see it said that the Thompson 358156 bullet is more accurate the Keith’s 358429. But I wonder if such a blanket statement is absolutely true. I suggest that guys are in fact comparing a gas checked 358156 to a plain based 358429. In my guns a gas checked 358429 pushed hard is pretty accurate for this half blind old man. Then there’s what (38 or 357) case these bullets were loaded in as well as which crimp groove was used and crimping over the shoulder to look at.

More, Bob Kell’s 640 styles are just excellent in my sixguns. Especially pushed hard and sporting a copper cup on their bottom. We can’t leave out the RCBS 150 grain SWC because it’s been around forever and it is a staple. The various LBT styles are interesting with the heavy (180 plus grain) payload they bring to the table.

So many load combinations to compliment all those sixguns out there. I’m currently doing some testing and I’m wanting to hear what you are finding success with.

[boolitdesigner]

Yeah Fermin, I like the 360640 hollow pointed myself. It's got several deer now.

[sixshot]

I've shot the Keith style bullet for well over 50 years now & it's always been my go to bullet for everything, but I have only used it on 2-3 deer & my Lion as far as big game. I've had the Ray Thompson GC bullet for just about as long and probably haven't shot 1,500 of them because I've never liked using GC's very much. But, that bullet has always been very accurate, even when GC's were only about $5 per thousand years ago.
I've taken a lot more game in recent years with the 357 Maximum, the first couple of deer were with the Keith style bullet & then I found the Miha moulds & starting trying the HP's that Bob designed. Not sure if I'm using the one he mentions above, mine weighs about 178 grs with a HP & it's a 640 style & I've taken maybe 10-12 deer & 4 antelope with it in 4 different states. Now the Keith is getting much less use & this bullet is getting much more. My last deer taken this last fall was with the Bradshaw/Martin bullet weighing 194 grs with my alloy in the Maximum & it shoots terrific in my 10.5" Ruger. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot an elk with this bullet at reasonable distance. I also have one of the Miha "Carbine" style bullet moulds that works great as well, all of these are GC'ed.

Dick

[bigbore5]

My go to bullets are the MP359-640, 358429, the RCBS 38-150KT, and (with the cylinder you prepped for it's long driving band) the MP 360-180.

Of those the 359-640 (175gr with my alloy) and the 360-180 are the most accurate. The 640 is better past 75yds, but I rarely shoot past that with a revolver.

[rjm52]

Started out handgun shooting with a Model 19 and the Lyman 357156 bullet...shot about 20k of them in the 10 years I had the gun...went over to .41 Magnum for most of my revolver shooting in 1980 and have fired very little .38/.357 since...don't think one Keith bullet ever went down the barrel of any of my .357s...a lot of SWCs but never a real Keith.

Recently got back into .38/.357 and ended up back where I started...the 357156. Bought an MP mold that does HPs also and one of his aluminum molds that throws a plain base solid. In a .38 Special case loaded with 6.0 grains of UNIQUE it runs right at 1000 from a 2" 649 and 1150 from a 6" pre-27... Accuracy has always been excellent...

It is too bad that S&W didn't think to lengthen the cylinder of the .357 and eliminate the barrel shank sticking into the frame window instead of basically just chambering the Outdoorsman for .357...the case could even been made a little longer...

Bob

[2 Dogs]

Jan 16, 2023 17:55:16 GMT -5 sixshot said:

I've shot the Keith style bullet for well over 50 years now & it's always been my go to bullet for everything, but I have only used it on 2-3 deer & my Lion as far as big game. I've had the Ray Thompson GC bullet for just about as long and probably haven't shot 1,500 of them because I've never liked using GC's very much. But, that bullet has always been very accurate, even when GC's were only about $5 per thousand years ago.
I've taken a lot more game in recent years with the 357 Maximum, the first couple of deer were with the Keith style bullet & then I found the Miha moulds & starting trying the HP's that Bob designed. Not sure if I'm using the one he mentions above, mine weighs about 178 grs with a HP & it's a 640 style & I've taken maybe 10-12 deer & 4 antelope with it in 4 different states. Now the Keith is getting much less use & this bullet is getting much more. My last deer taken this last fall was with the Bradshaw/Martin bullet weighing 194 grs with my alloy in the Maximum & it shoots terrific in my 10.5" Ruger. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot an elk with this bullet at reasonable distance. I also have one of the Miha "Carbine" style bullet moulds that works great as well, all of these are GC'ed.

Dick

Dick, please go back and tell us which bullets you are using with a GC and which are plain based.

[2 Dogs]

Jan 16, 2023 20:33:06 GMT -5 bigbore5 said:

My go to bullets are the MP359-640, 358429, the RCBS 38-150KT, and (with the cylinder you prepped for it's long driving band) the MP 360-180.

Of those the 359-640 (175gr with my alloy) and the 360-180 are the most accurate. The 640 is better past 75yds, but I rarely shoot past that with a revolver.

Wayne, again, for clarity, which bullets are you running plain based and which ones are you using a gas check please?

[2 Dogs]

Jan 17, 2023 8:59:34 GMT -5 rjm52 said:

Started out handgun shooting with a Model 19 and the Lyman 357156 bullet...shot about 20k of them in the 10 years I had the gun...went over to .41 Magnum for most of my revolver shooting in 1980 and have fired very little .38/.357 since...don't think one Keith bullet ever went down the barrel of any of my .357s...a lot of SWCs but never a real Keith.

Recently got back into .38/.357 and ended up back where I started...the 357156. Bought an MP mold that does HPs also and one of his aluminum molds that throws a plain base solid. In a .38 Special case loaded with 6.0 grains of UNIQUE it runs right at 1000 from a 2" 649 and 1150 from a 6" pre-27... Accuracy has always been excellent...

It is too bad that S&W didn't think to lengthen the cylinder of the .357 and eliminate the barrel shank sticking into the frame window instead of basically just chambering the Outdoorsman for .357...the case could even been made a little longer...

Bob

Bob, same question as above, what are you running gas checks on and what is plain based? Thanks buddy!

[sixshot]

The original Keith bullet I started out with back in the 60's was of course a plain base 173 gr bullet. The Ray Thompson 358156 is a GC & I've had it forever also, just haven't shot that many bullets through it although it's a great design.
I have 2, maybe 3 Miha moulds that are all GC design because I hot rod them. One is a 640 style & another is the "Carbine" bullet, not sure what nose style you call it. I think I have one other mould but can't remember the number, too many moulds I guess. I also have a few Lyman moulds that don't see much use anymore. Lyman 356402, Lyman 357446, Lyman 358477 & the Lyman 358495 full wadcutter, all are plain base design.
A dual purpose mould I have is another Miha bullet that I use for both 9mm & 38, 357 that is a 128 gr plain base. I shoot this bullet a great deal, but it has it's limitations as far as speed. And also the Bradshaw/Martin 194 gr bullet that is a GC design with no crimp groove, it's designed for deep seating over the top driving band & works as advertised. I guess I should mention that I powder coat everything.
Forgot, I also have a 140 gr Miha FN mould that is another dual purpose style, that is, I use it for both 9mm, & 38 Special, depending on sizing. It's a plain base & a nice little bullet from a 5 cavity mould.

Dick

[rjm52]

357156 Lyman/Thompson bullet both solid and HP...with gas check.

The non gas check bullets have a standard bottom.

[bigbore5]

Jan 17, 2023 10:10:17 GMT -5 2 Dogs said:

Jan 16, 2023 20:33:06 GMT -5 bigbore5 said:

My go to bullets are the MP359-640, 358429, the RCBS 38-150KT, and (with the cylinder you prepped for it's long driving band) the MP 360-180.

Of those the 359-640 (175gr with my alloy) and the 360-180 are the most accurate. The 640 is better past 75yds, but I rarely shoot past that with a revolver.

Wayne, again, for clarity, which bullets are you running plain based and which ones are you using a gas check please?

I don't use gas checks. High pressure stuff gets powder coat, but all these were plain base with RCBS lube. Alloy is 4:1 COWW to linotype, water dropped in the Maximum or COWW+2%tin for 38sp and magnum.

[2 Dogs]

Pasting this thread for reference.

singleactions.proboards.com/thread/31220/pet-load-data-mp359-magnum

[2 Dogs]

So for myself, my ammunition put up in 357 cases will be .357 Magnum level loads. Early on in my load development I tried pretty hard to make a plain base bullet work at top end however I only had success with Bob Kell’s MP359640 design. And then only in my Smith pre 27, my 6” Colt Trooper, and my 4” Ruger Security Six. My load as follows:

MP 359640 170 plain base HP conventionally cast and lubricated on 14.0 2400 sized .3595” and lit with a WSP. I have not chronographed this load.

In my conversations with Bob, he references the importance of using the correct alloy. While I’m certain Bob is right there’s also the question I often get where a guy asks “my bullet is 15 bhn, how hard can I push it?” My answer is that it depends on what your barrel will tolerate. My sixguns all have corrected throats and the barrels are restriction free.

I think I have nearly a dozen.357’s and they have different cylinder lengths so I am searching for the best loads for each. I think I’m going use 38-44 level loads in my Troopers.

[boolitdesigner]

Jan 18, 2023 12:23:56 GMT -5 2 Dogs said:

In my conversations with Bob, he references the importance of using the correct alloy. 

Hmmmm.... I'll probably get into trouble for this, but here goes. Industry solved the alloy problem long ago when they started drawing lead wire. That same alloy works for most things very well. It comprises 98% lead or so and about 2% antimony..... very ductile and won't pull apart. HOW DO YOU GET IT? 50% wheelweights and 50% pure lead............. It actually has about 2% antimony, 0.25% tin (which is a grain refiner, not much hardening there) and the rest lead with some impurities. The really nice thing is you can shoot it up to about 1800 fps normally with what you choose.... not with what it actually can do. This is about 8 BHN air cooled and I've shot it in semi auto 308s at about 2,400 fps with absolutely no leading (my way of course, not what you think it should be). You water drop that alloy you will get about 19 BHN after at least two weeks of it resting and the antimony crystal lattice growing for hardness. Don't think of trying it sooner because it hasn't stabilized enough to produce good or consistent results. Longer wait times are advantageous here. Wait a year and you get match grade bullets with the low antimony alloys. Of course the lubricant needs to be a good low viscosity lube.... that is VERY important. This is enough to make you think about it some............

I'll add something here.... I don't shoot powder coat. I'm a might old fashioned. These are all hand cast and lubed in a Lyman 450 with my own lube.

[2 Dogs]

One day, I remember being pretty frustrated, I finally tried PC bullets in my .357’s. These were some that Dick had sent me quite awhile back. The load was MP 359640 170 GC HP powder coated AND lubricated on 14.0 2400 sized .3595” and lit with a WSP. I was shooting these in a OM 357 that I had done a lot of work on and was pretty frustrated with because it wasn’t shooting for me. It came to me through my friend Joe Sandifer. I had converted it to Bisley with my last Clements parts and done all the sculpting on the frame and so on. I had about decided to rechamber and rebarrel the thing and said to myself “well let’s shoot these PC slugs and recover the brass”.

My first shot from seated backrest hit a 65 yard plate dead center. The second shot hit the first shot. I couldn’t believe it!! I called my buddy Trey and put in for some PC and went to work. I’m not sure if it was the powder coating or the GC that made the difference but I was pretty happy with the results.