The 357

[45MAN]

professor: WHAT MODEL IS STAMPED IN THE CRANE? WHAT IS THE SERIAL #? WONDERING IF THIS IS A RE-INTRO "CLASSIC"?

[Deleted]

I talked with Fermin today. He had interesting experiences with the 357. Some key thoughts I came away with follow.

Sizing lead bullets to chamber throats matters.

Trimming brass makes a difference.

Cylinder length makes a difference.

357 loads are different than higher pressure 38 special loads.

Gas checks make a difference.

Flat base is requirement on lead.

Powdercoating is good idea

Similar SWC designs length, weight, band widths appear to make a difference.

Cartridge OAL makes a difference especially across platforms. Large vs smaller frame Smiths, Rugers, Colts.

Single actions and Double actions handle loads differently.

I know these things apply to any cartridge. But it would be interesting to review detailed load results from forum members who have just about perfected their 357 loads. I was really interested in Fermins trimming of the brass. I know most guys say they never do. From my experience based on trimming my favorite cartridge 45 colt, trimming makes my loads more consistent. For general use it makes little difference but it seems to make me some difference in group consistency.

I look forward to seeing more information.

[45MAN]

BEEN COMMUNICATING WITH THE professor AND CHECKING MY REFERENCE MATERIALS. IN 1982 S&W WENT TO THE 27-3 AND ELIMINATED THE PINNED BARREL AND THE COUNTERBORED CYLINDER. THE professor MAY HAVE A "TRANSITION" 27-2 WITH NO PINNED BARREL BUT WITH A COUNTERBORED CYLINDER AND STILL MARKED 27-2. THE BETTER NEWS IS THAT HE SAYS IT IS A SHOOTER.

[2 Dogs]

I’m going to take a stab at trying to define a 357 Magnum load:
Any combination of case, powder and bullet you would not shoot in a 38 Special.

Hijacking aside, that’s what I’m looking for here. I realize that there is some overlap, the 358429/13.5 2400/38 Special case for example. It is a pretty powerful load and while likely safe in some 38 Special sixguns it’s a bit much for some others. But the same is true of the 357 Magnum when you include such sixguns as the Redhawk, BFR, and FA 353 revolvers.

I have some more data to share but I want to chrono and shoot some additional groups.

[Fowler]

Well there are certainly a lot of power levels available to a guy as Fermin said, and we can always load down but up only so far. For me here I sort of view levels like this assuming a 158gr bullet, regardless of the case being used. Frankly sticking to just 357 brass in a 357 gun makes a lot of since and make it a lot easier to clean the cylinder.

up to 850fps standard are 38 special loads
up to 1050fps are 38sp +P loads
up to 1350fps are 38/44 loads, the full Keith type loads
up to 1500fps are 357 mag loads
above that are Freedom Arms type 353 loads that crawl right up next to 357 max loads and destroy brass in a loading or two, dont drop one of these in your 19 unless you like a broken gun in a hurry.

For me the 357/38sp has always been a pretty overlooked round, I started centerfire shooting with a 6" Security Six and 38sp handloads that were mild and fun. Later when I got serious about handguns I was fully on board with heavy 45 colts, 45acp, and 44sp guns, light duty was where my love of 32mags and later 327 fed came in. I never did much with 22lr or 38/357s in general, they were tweeners from me that didn't get used.

That said there are so many really cool, classic wheelguns in these calibers that I ended up shooting them more and more. Honestly most of my work has been mid level 1000fps ish 38sp loads shot in 357 level guns (I have a 38sp USFA that is also offered in the 357 so I view it that way). My favorite is a 2 1/2" model 19 that I have carried a lot through the years, fed mostly 145gr-158gr loads at 1050fps ish loads it is a dandy that I can easily keep all my hits in the A zone of a USPSA target at 50 yards with a quick cadence. It is one of the revolvers that has really taught me how to shoot a double action revolver.

But the truth be known I have done very little 357 mag load development, a couple heavy self defense loads with 125gr and 140gr XTP bullets, a heavy 180gr cast load for a buddy who's wife took this gun to Alaska when they were fishing as bear protection. And some stout Keith style loads with 158gr and 173gr bullets in the 357 case. These were basically loaded hot enough they would stick in the cylinder and accurate enough that within 50 yards they hit what I shot at more or less as well as I shoot any revolver loads.

Lately I have tinkered with a 158gr 38-150KT bullet I cast and powder coated over enough AA9 powder for it to go about 1250fps from that short 2 1/2" barrel. Stiff enough that it IS a 357 load but not so hot to excessively wear on a little 19 gun, accurate enough to keep on a 12" gong beyond 50 yards but not beat the shooter up. I have noticed the muzzle blast on full Keith level loads get a bit rude, and frankly I prefer to shoot those level loads in my 4" N frame or a single action anyways.

Just a few random thoughts for the day...

[oddshooter]

Fowler,

nice post.

You did catch my attention with posting those velocities. I don't have a 38/44 so the jump from 38+P to 357mag was near 500fps. That must be one toasty 357mag round to handle. never quite got one of mine to that level.

prescut

[longoval]

I have a fixed sights, 5.5" FA Model 97. I shoot a 180 gr XTP at a maximum (per Hornady manual) charge of H110. I worked up to this load and it shoots well.

[Deleted]

Excellent article by Tank Hoover.MP c360 180 rf. I've found Powder coat to run fine in all of my revolvers and lever guns.



gunsmagazine.com/ammo/mps-358-180-rfgc-bullet-mold/

[bigbore5]

Feb 12, 2023 14:57:09 GMT -5 @professor said:

Excellent article by Tank Hoover.MP c360 180 rf. I've found Powder coat to run fine in all of my revolvers and lever guns.



gunsmagazine.com/ammo/mps-358-180-rfgc-bullet-mold/

I use this bullet. It has a long forward driving band that can cause problems chambering in most revolvers. I had to have Fermin open the throats on a couple of cylinders for me to be able to shoot it properly sized.

[Deleted]

Feb 12, 2023 22:31:16 GMT -5 bigbore5 said:

Feb 12, 2023 14:57:09 GMT -5 @professor said:

Excellent article by Tank Hoover.MP c360 180 rf. I've found Powder coat to run fine in all of my revolvers and lever guns.



gunsmagazine.com/ammo/mps-358-180-rfgc-bullet-mold/

I use this bullet. It has a long forward driving band that can cause problems chambering in most revolvers. I had to have Fermin open the throats on a couple of cylinders for me to be able to shoot it properly sized.

Thank you for that tip. I can see how that would be problematic. I have several of the classic swc molds but think a wide flat round nose type would be excellent in some situations.

[paul105]

Fermin, don't how much use this is germane to your data gathering, but here goes. Word of caution some of the h110 loads with heavier bullets might be a bit aggressive - SO APPROACH with caution. The 173gr SWC Keith Lyman 358429, no gas check, traditional lube, from Western Bullet deep seated and crimped over front drive band, over 11.0gr of A2400 in the 5.5" FA97 is very accurate and quite tractable ( Terry Murbach's word) recoil wise. Sorry about the formatting - spent a couple of hours on it so hope it works.

Lyman 358429 - Third cartridge and bullet from left



Left to right - 185gr Beartooth LFNGC - No longer available
180gr Hornady JHP
173gr 358429
170gr "Keith" from Leadheads - No longer available


Beartooth 185gr LFNGC
New WW Cases
Fed 200 Mag
14.7gr Lil'Gun
1.595 OAL
Chron 4 Paces fr Muzzle
Temp 75 Deg


Marlin 18" 1,713
Ruger BH 6.5" 1,388
Ruger SP101 3" 1,161
S&W M60 3" 1,175
S&W M360 Ti 1.875" 1,023
S&W M340 Ti 1.875" 1,007

=========================================
Marlin 18" ,158 gr LRNFP, 9.6gr Blue Dot, 1482.5 fps
Marlin 18" ,158 gr RJHP, 9.6gr Blue Dot, 1405.5 fps
Ruger BH 6.5" ,158 gr LRNFP, 9.6gr Blue Dot, 1272.5 fps
Ruger BH 6.5" ,158 gr RJHP, 9.6gr Blue Dot, 1225 fps
Ruger SP101 3" ,158 gr LRNFP, 9.6gr Blue Dot, 1171
S&W M60 3" ,158 gr LRNFP, 9.6gr Blue Dot, 1166
Ruger SP101 3" ,158 gr RJHP, 9.6gr Blue Dot, 1139.5 fps
S&W M60 3" ,158 gr RJHP, 9.6gr Blue Dot, 1129 fps
S&W M360 Ti 1.9" ,158 gr LRNFP, 9.6gr Blue Dot, 1019.5 fps
S&W M360 Ti 1.9" ,158 gr RJHP, 9.6gr Blue Dot, 945.5 fps

============================================
S&W M340 Ti 1.9",
130 Hydra-Shok, Fed Fact, Fed cases, Fed primers, .357 Mag, Fed Fact, 1159 fps
158 CSWC, Add, Mixed cases, Std primers, 13.5, H-2400, 1075 fps
158 JHP - XTP, Horn, Mixed cases, Std primers, 13.5, H-2400, 1009 fps
158 LSWC, Rim Rock, Starline cases, CCI Std primers, 12.7, H-2400, 967 fps
185 LFNGC, Beartooth, WW cases, Fed 200 Mag primers, 14.7, Lil'Gun, 1006.5 fps
180 LWFN LBT, Fed Fact, Fed cases, Fed primers, .357 Mag, Fed Fact, 905 fps
158 LSWHP, Rem Fact +P, RP cases, RP primers, .38 Spec, Rem Fact, 753 fps
130 Fed Am Eagle, Fed Fact, Fed cases, Fed primers, .38 Spec, Am Eagle, 680 fps
158 LRNFP, Meister, Mixed cases, Fed 100 primers, 9.6, Blue Dot, 1020 fps
158 JHP, Remington, Mixed cases, Fed 100 primers, 9.6, Blue Dot, 946 fps

======================================================
Labradar Muzzle Velocity (familiarization run)
60 Deg F
S&W M66-8 2.75" .357 Mag

130gr Fed Hydra-Shok JHP "Personal Defense" PD357HS2 H …….. 1,416 fps avg (84 fps ES) -- two rounds
140gr Underwood Xtreme Penetrator (Philips head mono metal).. 1,422 fps avg ( 5 fps ES) -- two rounds
158gr Horn Xtp - 15.0gr A2400 Std small pistol, new Starline...… 1,316 fps avg (49 fps ES) -- six rounds
165gr CSWCGC (358156) - 13.0gr A2400 New Starline ...… 1,070 fps avg (49 fps ES) -- six rounds
180gr Buff Bore …………………………………………………………………………….. 1,312 fps avg ( 6 fps ES) -- two rounds
185gr LFNGC (Beartooth), 15.0gr Lil'Gun, CCI 400 New Starline.. 1,228 fps avg (14 fps ES) – two rounds
200gr WLNGC (leadheads), 13.4gr H110, Fed 205, New Starline.. 1,102 fps avg ( 4 fps ES) – two rounds
200gr WLNGC (leadheads), 14.4gr H110, Fed 205, New Starline.. 1,155 fps avg ( 2 fps ES) – two rounds
(purported to be the “Doubletap” load info)
200gr WLNGC (leadheads) handload with Lil Gun ………………………. 1,266 fps avg ( 2 fps ES) -- two rounds
Load data not given -- maybe too much of a good thing. Spent cases fell from chambers, and no obvious signs of over pressure. Recoil was heavy. Don't even know if this stabilizes.

If even needed, I would limit useage of the 180, 185, and 200gr loads in J & K Frame guns

Also ran two Buff Bore 180s thru 16" Rossi M92 carbine ……………. 1,894 fps avg ( 6 fps ES) -- two rounds



5.5" Freedom Arms M97
5 Long paces from muzzle
75 Deg F

185 LFNGC, Beartooth, Starline-New cases, CCI 400 primers, 15.1 R#16, H110, 1345 fps
185 LFNGC, Beartooth, Starline-1X cases, CCI 500 primers, 11.0 R#15, A2400, 1140 fps
180 JHP DC, Horn, Starline-1X cases, CCI 500 primers, 11.0 R#15, A2400, 1039 fps
173 SW-Keith, crimped over front dr band, Western Bullet, Starline-New cases, CCI 400 primers, 15.1 R#16, H110, 1384 fps
173 SW-Keith, crimped over front dr band, Western Bullet, Starline-1X cases, CCI 400 primers, 11.0 R#15, A2400, 1177 fps
173 SW-Keith, crimped on drive band, Leadheads, Starline-1X cases, CCI 400 primers, 11.0 R#15, A2400, 1181 fps
173 SW-Keith, crimped in crimp grove, Leadheads, Starline-1X cases, CCI 400 primers, 11.0
R#15, A2400, 1162 fps

==========================================================================================

Paul

[oddshooter]

Paul,

That was a hell of a post. your data allows me to do some real comparisons I have wanted for a long time.
In several spots you just changed one variable (powder, crimp location, amounts) and you could see the difference it made.

It is great getting to see velocities change, but I would love to see group size changes with each variant.  Do you capture group size?

Your pic seems to show what I would call a very heavy crimp.  I think I an also see a small ring at the top of the crimp.  Are my eyes playing tricks?


Prescut

[Deleted]

Paul.
Wow. You are getting good results in the short barrel revolvers.
A few questions:
1) what are you crimping with? that's a serious crimp.

2) are you trimming your brass?

[paul105]

Couldn't figure out how to do a multiple reply so:

With regard to the crimp in the picture - Ammo was loaded on a Dillon Square Deal B. The roll crimp was just the slightest concave, so I ran them thru a Lee Factory Crimp Die (the rifle collet version).

No I don't trim handgun cases.

I usually develop a load for a given caliber. When I find the sweet spot, I use that load. I don't keep track of the ones that are not keepers. Some times I don't even shoot for accuracy just being curious about velocity.



Paul

[hounddogman]

Thank you Paul for that data and for taking the time writing it all down here. Side note,I miss bear tooth bullets and Marshall's writings.