The 357

[2 Dogs]

So as it turns out, my first run at PCGCHP 358156 on 16.0 H110 was showing a bit of skidding in my barrels. (Except my pre 27 which doesn’t seem to care what I feed it). Subsequent consultation with Dick and Bob Kell has resulted in my back tracking a bit. I’m thinking my alloy was too soft once annealed by baking on the powder coating. As further evidence the plain based 44 Terminator bullet also showed (how’s that you stinkin hijacker’s!! I’m hijacking my own thread) skidding on a relatively mild load of 10 grains of Unique.

So I have gone back and water quenched my cast slugs. I checked a couple a couple days later and they showed 12 BHN. A few more days later and I’m getting 14 BHN. So I haven’t forgotten my own thread, but instead I’m in a holding pattern here…

My thanks to the guys who are taking the time to contribute and share their experiences.

Lo and behold but powder coating is not magic pixie dust!

[Deleted]

Please describe how skidding is detected in bullets.

[bigbrowndog]

Lo and behold but powder coating is not magic pixie dust!

No it is not, as I’ve discovered from my .414 exploits. I don’t know what skidding is, skid marks are a different subject, there’s your hijack dos perros. What I do know is after shooting PC’d slugs from my .414 I get lots and lots of lead flakes like pixie dust flying from my barrel, with each push of a bore brush.
Trapr

[Encore64]

Well, I'll state the obvious...

Powder coating is just that, a coating. It's not a jacket to protect the core or control expansion.

A powder coated soft bullet, is still a soft bullet. Prone to skidding just as an uncoated bullet.

I've never really comprehended the whole soft bullet thing. Some claim they're needed to expand and fill the bore.

But, if the revolver throats, forcing cone and bore are correctly sized, then what else is needed?

Granted on some of the 100+ year old 41 Colts, etc, I get it.

But, on a modern revolver with correct tolerances, I like bullets hard as hammer cat....well, you know.

[bushog]

Feb 26, 2023 20:04:26 GMT -5 Encore64 said:

Well, I'll state the obvious...

Powder coating is just that, a coating. It's not a jacket to protect the core or control expansion.

A powder coated soft bullet, is still a soft bullet. Prone to skidding just as an uncoated bullet.

I've never really comprehended the whole soft bullet thing. Some claim they're needed to expand and fill the bore.

But, if the revolver throats, forcing cone and bore are correctly sized, then what else is needed?

Granted on some of the 100+ year old 41 Colts, etc, I get it.

But, on a modern revolver with correct tolerances, I like bullets hard as hammer cat....well, you know.

I’ll stick my neck out and say the soft bullet thing is driven by the availability of hollow point molds and the quest for maximum expansion.

[boolitdesigner]

Boy, either hard as nails or soft for expansion. Guys, there are other easier ways................... Cast very soft low antimony (2% or a little less), even lower tin (about 1/4%) bullets and water drop them, wait at least two weeks... then lube and size them. The bullets skin turns hard enough to really zing them VERY fast and the core is soft enough to expand with hollow points of a larger size. I've used this for over thirty years and it WORKS. Pick what you want to make you happy, but this will do it easily.

[2 Dogs]

Like my good friend Huey I will also state the obvious: this is about what your barrel will tolerate!!

[2 Dogs]

Feb 26, 2023 20:37:21 GMT -5 boolitdesigner said:

Boy, either hard as nails or soft for expansion. Guys, there are other easier ways................... Cast very soft low antimony (2% or a little less), even lower tin (about 1/4%) bullets and water drop them, wait at least two weeks... then lube and size them. The bullets skin turns hard enough to really zing them VERY fast and the core is soft enough to expand with hollow points of a larger size. I've used this for over thirty years and it WORKS. Pick what you want to make you happy, but this will do it easily.

It’s a very long 2 weeks old friend…

[boolitdesigner]

Worry wart. It's a short time, especially if you do it every day.
Water dropped gets you 19 BHN in two weeks and expansion much like a 8 BHN bullet that happens if you air cool them. I've shot a lot of deer to find out how they work. I've only recovered one expanded bullet from a deer in the last 33 years, the rest went thru... sometimes length-ways.

[sixshot]

Too much antimony is not your friend. And if you want water quenching to work you have to give it time. All the bullets I used in Africa were water quenched & most of the 45's were HP's.

Dick

[AxeHandle]

My water dropped 50% lead and 50% linotype went at about 25 on my LBT tester. Dang things broke a Star Sizer! Was water dropping to speed production rate. Went to multiple mold sets of molds to allow more in the mold cooling time.

[boolitdesigner]

Feb 27, 2023 8:01:47 GMT -5 AxeHandle said:

My water dropped 50% lead and 50% linotype went at about 25 on my LBT tester. Dang things broke a Star Sizer! Was water dropping to speed production rate. Went to multiple mold sets of molds to allow more in the mold cooling time.


No, water dropping is used to increase bullet hardness only. If you wisely use alloy content, you can have a softer core and hard surface. It makes a real difference just how you do that. Low content of antimony and tin produce that. High alloy content produce hard brittle bullets and hardness sooner. There are basic rules to follow when you try this.

[contender]

I've been following this thread all along. VERY interesting & informative. I've got too many different .357 Mag handguns to try & test everything in all guns. (Over 40 handguns.) And I have a dozen or more bullet molds to play with. Only 2 of my .357 molds have gas checks. And I have a variety of bullet designs.
The worst part is a lot of my loading & casting notes are not as detailed as they should be. (My notes from many years ago were not as I do now. Much less detail.) So, I'm kinda in the same boat as 2 Dogs wondering what all this can show us.

I can say that in the last few years,, I've really been using an alloy of 50% WW & 50% pure a lot. After powder coating, most of my bullets have been very, very good across the calibers I've used. I'm not a big fan of "hot rodding" stuff much. I usually find a good, accurate load in more moderate velocity ranges. And since I'm not chasing the need of a harder bullet,, I don't water quench much.

I'm about to get into a bunch of casting soon, as I see an upcoming need of a lot of .45 cal bullets. And I need to run a bunch of the Bradshaw/Martin .357 Maxi bullets. The Maxi bullet is a GC one (of course) and so far,, it's proving itself just like what David has shown in his detailed reports.

In general,, due to what I have been doing,, I haven't had skidding, leading or other issues since I started PCing my bullets. And my accuracy has been right where I hope for or expected. BUT,, much of what I've done in the last several years hasn't been with the .357 Mag, so I'm following this thread very closely.

[bigbore5]

I don't get the leading with air cooled powder coating in the larger calibers. But with full power 357 mag and max, they lead horribly. Every single time. That's with straight coww+2% tin.

Same bullet and load water dropped and lubed old style still doesn't lead the barrel much and hasn't in the years I have been doing it.

I'm going to try water dropped, aged a few weeks, then pc, and water dropped again after a longer bake than I have used before. Kind of a heat treatment and quench.

[boolitdesigner]

Feb 27, 2023 19:53:04 GMT -5 bigbore5 said:

I'm going to try water dropped, aged a few weeks, then pc, and water dropped again after a longer bake than I have used before. Kind of a heat treatment and quench.

I'm going to try and help here. Veral Smith had three pamphlets out about jacketed performance with cast bullets... one after the other as supplements and more information. They were very good at the time, but not as complete as they could have been. The crux of the matter is anytime you heat an alloy enough, you can change it's hardness or temper. Initial water dropping and then reheating does little for you. Once you soak those cast bullets for at least a half hour at an elevated temperature, the water dropping heat treat that you initially did disappears. It takes on the heat treat you are doing (or draws the alloy to a lower hardness). Various lower than melt temperatures taken on the BHN for that temperature when you water drop the second time and it is quite repeatable. You have to experiment some with various temperatures to get the hardness you want. This is for 50%WW / 50% pure alloy. You vary the percentages and the information changes. I don't do powder coat at all. All my uses involve the old cast'em, water drop'em and wait two + weeks then lube and size'em and shoot'em.