ORGIVE SHAPE AND REVOLVER BULLET LETHALITY?

[revolvercranker]

Aug 2, 2024 21:06:56 GMT -5 bigbore5 said:

Okay he killed an mbogo with a 10mm. It is a stunt, but that's his nitch. I've seen several killed by rangers with the 9mm duty guns or the 7.62×39 patrol rifles. I've also saw what was left of a Kruger ranger when he tried to finish a vehicle struck buff that had a broken hip. It did die from the gunshot, but after the ranger, not before.

Believe me, I am not hating on the 10mm. When forced into bad neighborhoods, it's what I am carrying. But it is by no means a dangerous game cartridge. Hunters are killed by the Black Death after it soaks up multiple big bore rifle rounds.

I have backed senior ph's on rhino, lion, and an elephant. I've been primary on a few dozen leopard, probably 50+ hippo and crocs. Trust me when I say that when a Cape Buffalo decides to kill the hunter there's no other animal I ever faced that's as tough or mean as them.

On big game, I have not seen any real difference in the 10mm over the 357mag. Most of the hunters we had that used revolvers chose the 44mag with the 454 a close second. Hunters pursuing the big three usually had a 5-shot 45C or the 454. A few had custom 475's as the FA 83 wasn't out then in that cartridge. 41 and 44 mag were popular for the cats, usually loaded with heavy jacketed soft points for leopard. Most used the SSK or NEI heavyweights cast from Lyman #2 or wheel weights. Those were pre-Punch or monometal days.

Dig up the full real video Dobbs did, you'll see he has a professional PH at all times.  He's not an idiot.  Sure big dangerous game animals have been killed with much lesser rounds.  One for example is an escaped enraged Elephant that flipped out at a circus in Florida. The police killed it with their service 9mm.  The list goes on.  trapr watched an edited vido. He didn't see the original video. He would have seen the PH there. Unfortunately for trapr he's not going to see Dobbs pull out his big knife and do an autospy the buff. If trapr thinks I'm pulling the wool over his eyes.

You have your opinion like everyone else. In my opinion the 10mm has a real difference over the 357 Mag.  If I'm going to go on an expensive hunting trip in Africa I'm going to bring the proper big game rifle. I'm not out to proof anything or to do a stunt.  I was particualary applauded by the big game hunter that took and Elephant with a bow. That Elephant didn't go right down, he suffered. A proper placed shot with a big game rifle takes an elephant real quick, like say a brain shot. 

[45MAN]

I THINK I KNOW TRAPR PRETTY GOOD, HE CAN BE CURT AT TIMES IN HIS POSTS, BUT JEALOUS HE IS NOT. HE IS ALSO VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE ABOUT FIREARMS, A HELL'uva A SHOT WITH RIFLE AND HANDGUN, AND HAS PROBABLY KILLED ENOUGH HOGS TO MAKE PIGMAN JEALOUS.

[revolvercranker]

Don't worry fellows, I like all of you even trapr. We can all disagree at times as long as we make up. I apologize if I tramped on anyone's toes. But I'm not stepping on Dobb's toes, he liable to shoot me with that 10mm!!

[sixshot]

I'm enjoying the heck out of this! If you kill a Cape Buffalo with a 10mm because that's all you have & it's a life or death situation I applaud you, if you intentionally go hunting Cape Buffalo with a 10mm & there's a more suitable gun available I'd said it's a stunt. Making it work doesn't make it a sensible thing to do. Just my opinion. Had a guy tell me once that bull Elephant had been taken with the 22 LR, it was shot in the testicles, dead in about 10 days, my goodness, how sporting!! I tried to kill a Seagull once with a Boomarang, threw that dumb thing for about 3 days & had it about worn out. I had decided to throw it away and get a new one but I couldn't throw the old one away..........

Dick







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[jaydubinwi]

Jul 31, 2024 3:38:39 GMT -5 bigbore5 said:

I firmly believe the only time ogive comes into play in flesh would be when bone is impacted. If hit straight on it is not as big a factor, but when striking at an angle it does come into play. Especially at handgun velocities.

When I was designing the 51-355H bullet from Accurate, Bulletdesigner described the different ogive shapes to me. His description can be found in the Ask bulletdesigner thread. I had the idea based on experience, but not the nomenclature.

I've shot or seen shot big game with most bullet shapes out there now. I always either watched the skinners work or asked later about the bullet paths of most shapes and chamberings of bullets. Nobody knows as much about actual bullet performance and wound path as the skinners and butchers of a Safari company.

I really hadn't put much thoughts into handgun bullet ogive until talking to JD Jones. We had him in for some plains game, croc and hippo at the Limpopo camp. On one of the hippo, it shifted as he shot and the bullet struck the shoulder blade at an angle sharper than intended. I've seen that deflect the path of the round nose solids that were still preferred back then in rifles. His heavy truncated cone shaped bullet from his 430JDJ Contender bit pretty well though and still drove deep to do it's job with little deflecting.

Later when I mentioned the bullets performance, he explained why he liked the truncated cone shaped bullet and why a bullet for heavy boned game should have a sharp edge for the transition from meplat to ogive, so it would bite into bones instead of skidding. So of course I got a mold and started using his bullets as backup in my Redhawk. They worked admirable until they didn't.

A hippo charged one night. The first two rounds skidded on it's sloped skull with little effect. The third entered the eye socket staggering and turning the beast. The fourth entered the side of the skull punching the brain at about 8ft away. Technically they did the job, but that's the closest I came to becoming a grease spot in the years I was there.

The skinners found that the first two had followed the slope of the skull, tunneling through the meat having left small fractures at the impact sight but no real damage. I believe the straight angle of the truncated cone turned the bullet causing it to skid rather than bite. A round nose is very prone to this. A tangential is not as bad. I have settled on either the secant type profile or Bob's 640 design, which is kinda it's own thing, both of which seems to perform well against bone.

Your post reminded me of a Ross Seyfried article that a kind member burned on a disc for me 10 years ago. The article is from G & A The october 93 issues. It was titled " Ultimate cast handgun bullets". Ross was discussing the various LBT designs. He ran a penetration test with the 280 WFN in 44 mag. He also used a 320/330 JDJ truncated cone. He said the lighter LBT penetrated better due to design perfection. He said the JDJ had incorrect nose design , but didn't go into too much more detail.
The OP's question makes me want to dig up my copy of Veral's book and see what he says about nose design.

[45MAN]

THANKS TO A TIP FROM A FORUM MEMBER I GOT A COPY OF VERAL's BOOK ON THE WAY FROM AN EBAY SELLER.

[bigbore5]

I've found that the LBT wfn doesn't out penetrate the SSK bullet in most game I have shot or seen shot. However the LFN design will penetrate equal or better than the SSK. It also performed better against bones struck at 45°, seeming to deflect less.

[fm027]

Any of you guys got pictures of each of those bullets side x side each other? LBT LFN SSK etc etc

In the same picture*

[reflex264]

All very interesting. I am late to the party but I have never been able to prove that ogive had that big of an impact after a few hundred kills with WFN and LFN bullets. My favorite hunting handgun for years which was used on pigs and deer is a .44 Special Taurus. I started shooting the CPB 255 WFNGC at a bit over 1000 fps. It just killed stuff. Usually a 1/2" hole all the way through the critter and if they did run it was 10-30 yards. In the absence of that bullet I bought some Montana Bullet Works 240 and 260 grain WFN bullets. The 240 has a slightly larger meplat than the 255 or 260. I loaded some and killed a doe with the shot she gave me which was a neck shot and it punched a 5/8-3/4 hole through the neck. I can try them all in the ballistic buffalo side by side at equal velocities. I can then do a comparison between empirical data and real on game data between the two. I get to kill a lot of stuff so this wouldn't be hard. Jere are the 3 similar bullets, each with a different ogive. The crimps look funny because of the light. They were actually OK.

[bigmuddy]

Reflex,

I welcome any and all information you can provide on those bullets in the 44 Special. I have only taken 3 deer with the 44sp, each with a different bullet. All worked well but the most impressive was with the 255 wfngc that I cast in my LBT mold @ 1150 fps. It looks like the bullet on the left in your picture.

I have lately been carrying a 255 LHP from GT Bullets. It is what is being referred to as the “640” design I believe and they are cast pretty soft. I am wondering how it would do on a white tail. So far have only used it for pest control. It is quite effective in that role but I am concerned about possible poor penetration on a deer.

I have read with interest some of your posts on the WFN and your Taurus revolver. Thinking that may be what I need to use when hunting with my Specials.

Dan

[fm027]

Sept 23, 2024 8:15:56 GMT -5 reflex264 said:

All very interesting. I am late to the party but I have never been able to prove that ogive had that big of an impact after a few hundred kills with WFN and LFN bullets. My favorite hunting handgun for years which was used on pigs and deer is a .44 Special Taurus. I started shooting the CPB 255 WFNGC at a bit over 1000 fps. It just killed stuff. Usually a 1/2" hole all the way through the critter and if they did run it was 10-30 yards. In the absence of that bullet I bought some Montana Bullet Works 240 and 260 grain WFN bullets. The 240 has a slightly larger meplat than the 255 or 260. I loaded some and killed a doe with the shot she gave me which was a neck shot and it punched a 5/8-3/4 hole through the neck. I can try them all in the ballistic buffalo side by side at equal velocities. I can then do a comparison between empirical data and real on game data between the two. I get to kill a lot of stuff so this wouldn't be hard. Jere are the 3 similar bullets, each with a different ogive. The crimps look funny because of the light. They were actually OK.

What kind of accuracy do you get with bullets like that 50 yards or further out? The ones I've tried of that design are wicked hunting/killing bullets out to 30-35 yards but fly like buckshot 50 yards & farther. They're the best close range hammers on big animals I ever used, but cannot get the downrange accuracy I'd like at any distance ... the only exception I've found is shooting a faster twist barrel and hotter faster loads. It helped to tighten groups up. Nothing loaded 1000fps or less shoots worth a fart using the big WFN design at longer range for some reason.

[reflex264]

Sept 23, 2024 10:27:18 GMT -5 fm027 said:

Sept 23, 2024 8:15:56 GMT -5 reflex264 said:

All very interesting. I am late to the party but I have never been able to prove that ogive had that big of an impact after a few hundred kills with WFN and LFN bullets. My favorite hunting handgun for years which was used on pigs and deer is a .44 Special Taurus. I started shooting the CPB 255 WFNGC at a bit over 1000 fps. It just killed stuff. Usually a 1/2" hole all the way through the critter and if they did run it was 10-30 yards. In the absence of that bullet I bought some Montana Bullet Works 240 and 260 grain WFN bullets. The 240 has a slightly larger meplat than the 255 or 260. I loaded some and killed a doe with the shot she gave me which was a neck shot and it punched a 5/8-3/4 hole through the neck. I can try them all in the ballistic buffalo side by side at equal velocities. I can then do a comparison between empirical data and real on game data between the two. I get to kill a lot of stuff so this wouldn't be hard. Jere are the 3 similar bullets, each with a different ogive. The crimps look funny because of the light. They were actually OK.

What kind of accuracy do you get with bullets like that 50 yards or further out? The ones I've tried of that design are wicked hunting/killing bullets out to 30-35 yards but fly like buckshot 50 yards & farther. They're the best close range hammers on big animals I ever used, but cannot get the downrange accuracy I'd like at any distance ... the only exception I've found is shooting a faster twist barrel and hotter faster loads. It helped to tighten groups up. Nothing loaded 1000fps or less shoots worth a fart using the big WFN design at longer range for some reason.

Actual 100 yard group from the T441T with a 4X scope. What gun and what loads are you shooting? Bullet?
The gun that shoots these so good as near perfect cylinder. The throats all measure .430". One thing this gun wont shoot that the rest of my .44s shoot great is the 250 Keith. Even sized .430 or .431 they won't shoot. .429" Keith bullets Keyhole in it.

[GSSP]

Compared to some, heck, numerous who've posted here I feel like a babe in the woods but I come bearing gifts. Something to add. My own 255 gr LBT WFN pb (15 BHN) from my 4-5/8" Ruger SS Flat top running 1056 fps over a dose of Alliant 20/28 places 5 within a 1.25" cluster at 50 yds. I don't think I shot any groups at distance so can't say anything to that. The distance was only 15 yds but the mule deer doe dropped like her legs were pulled out from underneath her. Hope this bullet has a future in 44 spl's new/big brother recently manufactured by Ruger and delivered to me from Lipsey's.