ORGIVE SHAPE AND REVOLVER BULLET LETHALITY?

[bushog]

See….Im behaving myself!

[handgunhuntingafield]

🍿

[bigbore5]

I firmly believe the only time ogive comes into play in flesh would be when bone is impacted. If hit straight on it is not as big a factor, but when striking at an angle it does come into play. Especially at handgun velocities.

When I was designing the 51-355H bullet from Accurate, Bulletdesigner described the different ogive shapes to me. His description can be found in the Ask bulletdesigner thread. I had the idea based on experience, but not the nomenclature.

I've shot or seen shot big game with most bullet shapes out there now. I always either watched the skinners work or asked later about the bullet paths of most shapes and chamberings of bullets. Nobody knows as much about actual bullet performance and wound path as the skinners and butchers of a Safari company.

I really hadn't put much thoughts into handgun bullet ogive until talking to JD Jones. We had him in for some plains game, croc and hippo at the Limpopo camp. On one of the hippo, it shifted as he shot and the bullet struck the shoulder blade at an angle sharper than intended. I've seen that deflect the path of the round nose solids that were still preferred back then in rifles. His heavy truncated cone shaped bullet from his 430JDJ Contender bit pretty well though and still drove deep to do it's job with little deflecting.

Later when I mentioned the bullets performance, he explained why he liked the truncated cone shaped bullet and why a bullet for heavy boned game should have a sharp edge for the transition from meplat to ogive, so it would bite into bones instead of skidding. So of course I got a mold and started using his bullets as backup in my Redhawk. They worked admirable until they didn't.

A hippo charged one night. The first two rounds skidded on it's sloped skull with little effect. The third entered the eye socket staggering and turning the beast. The fourth entered the side of the skull punching the brain at about 8ft away. Technically they did the job, but that's the closest I came to becoming a grease spot in the years I was there.

The skinners found that the first two had followed the slope of the skull, tunneling through the meat having left small fractures at the impact sight but no real damage. I believe the straight angle of the truncated cone turned the bullet causing it to skid rather than bite. A round nose is very prone to this. A tangential is not as bad. I have settled on either the secant type profile or Bob's 640 design, which is kinda it's own thing, both of which seems to perform well against bone.

[bula]

Well, I'm smiling right now, having mentioned JDJ's TC bullets. A 430 DJ will get shot for grins later. Also think the OP is starting to get answers. Nice..

[sharps4590]

Jul 28, 2024 5:24:43 GMT -5 shorty500 said:

While I dabbled with casting soft nose bullets as well as hollow points decades ago, I stayed with concept of a large caliber with a large meplat.
Whether it was an original Keith or a copy or a rnfp they work with no extra fuss and muss. While I occasionally use an old favorite .44 or .45 , the
460 grain .500 rnfp driven to a modest 1300fps has been my hunting go to for over 20 years

Add 20 grains weight and reduce the caliber to 45, which will make for a longer bullet with higher sectional density, and you have described my hunting load from my Shiloh Sharps 45-90.  I load an NEI bullet over 80 grs. of Schuetzen Ffg.  The bullet has a 35 cal. meplat and I believe the long, almost parallel ogive has a desirable effect.  

How anything could be any more deadly whether from a rifle or revolver, is beyond me.

[messybear]

Jul 31, 2024 3:38:39 GMT -5 bigbore5 said:

I firmly believe the only time ogive comes into play in flesh would be when bone is impacted. If hit straight on it is not as big a factor, but when striking at an angle it does come into play. Especially at handgun velocities.

When I was designing the 51-355H bullet from Accurate, Bulletdesigner described the different ogive shapes to me. His description can be found in the Ask bulletdesigner thread. I had the idea based on experience, but not the nomenclature.

I've shot or seen shot big game with most bullet shapes out there now. I always either watched the skinners work or asked later about the bullet paths of most shapes and chamberings of bullets. Nobody knows as much about actual bullet performance and wound path as the skinners and butchers of a Safari company.

I really hadn't put much thoughts into handgun bullet ogive until talking to JD Jones. We had him in for some plains game, croc and hippo at the Limpopo camp. On one of the hippo, it shifted as he shot and the bullet struck the shoulder blade at an angle sharper than intended. I've seen that deflect the path of the round nose solids that were still preferred back then in rifles. His heavy truncated cone shaped bullet from his 430JDJ Contender bit pretty well though and still drove deep to do it's job with little deflecting.

Later when I mentioned the bullets performance, he explained why he liked the truncated cone shaped bullet and why a bullet for heavy boned game should have a sharp edge for the transition from meplat to ogive, so it would bite into bones instead of skidding. So of course I got a mold and started using his bullets as backup in my Redhawk. They worked admirable until they didn't.

A hippo charged one night. The first two rounds skidded on it's sloped skull with little effect. The third entered the eye socket staggering and turning the beast. The fourth entered the side of the skull punching the brain at about 8ft away. Technically they did the job, but that's the closest I came to becoming a grease spot in the years I was there.

The skinners found that the first two had followed the slope of the skull, tunneling through the meat having left small fractures at the impact sight but no real damage. I believe the straight angle of the truncated cone turned the bullet causing it to skid rather than bite. A round nose is very prone to this. A tangential is not as bad. I have settled on either the secant type profile or Bob's 640 design, which is kinda it's own thing, both of which seems to perform well against bone.

You really got my attention when I read this- especially with they worked admiralby till they didnt.

This is where we need to work from. I often have wondered how many times there are failures like this skidding on the skull. Don’t think for a minute it couldn’t be repeated on other smaller animals.
And I have wondered how we could reliably test for this to hopefully land on the best design. Without the bullet we don’t know if it smeared and lost the biting edge on meplat or did it impact on the slope or angle of the nose. It would be nice to be able to set up a test for this

[bigbrowndog]

Take a wet 1x6 of oak and place it at varying angles and hit it with different bullets you should get a fairly decent idea. Personally I think it’s too subjective, because you will never know the angle of your target in the wild.

Trapr

[sixshot]

One of the more interesting reads we've had, thanks Rey. And Rey would be one of the better guys to discuss this, he's punched holes in a few big critters! Thick hide on some of those animals including Giraffe!

Dick

[45MAN]

Aug 1, 2024 2:53:04 GMT -5 sixshot said:

One of the more interesting reads we've had, thanks Rey. And Rey would be one of the better guys to discuss this, he's punched holes in a few big critters! Thick hide on some of those animals including Giraffe!

Dick

NO GIRAFFE, BUT LOTS OF OTHER STUFF. IN 6 OF MY LAST 7 OF MY 11 HANDGUN SAFARIS MY PRIMARY HUNTING BULLET WAS A .452 WFNish FLAT POINT 305gr FMJ PENETRATOR BY COR-BON AND ON MY LAST A 320gr WFNish FLAT POINT PUNCH BULLET. THESE BULLETS WERE ALL SHOT AT 454 MV's IN 45 COLT CASES AND LATER IN 454 CASES. THEY WERE DESIGNED FOR OPTIMUM BULLET INTEGRITY AND FROM THE FEW RECOVERED THAT IS THE WAY THEY WORKED. BY "BULLET INTEGRITY" I MEAN THAT EXCEPT FOR THE RIFLING MARKS THE BULLETS SHOWED NO DEFORMITY. THIS IS ALL A GUESS BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF RECOVERED BULLETS AND NO AUTOPSIES, BUT I DO NOT RECALL ANY SKIDDING OR FAILURE TO PENETRATE IN A STRAIGHT LINE ISSUES, AND "I THINK" THAT IF YOU WANT A BULLET THAT WILL "BITE", NOT DEFLECT, AND PENETRATE STAIGHT LINE YOU NEED A FLAT POINT AND OPTIMUM BULLET INTEGRITY, WHICH CURRENTLY ARE SOMETHING LIKE THE .451 325gr BARNES BUSTER OR THE LEHIGH FLAT POINT MONO BULLETS. 

[fm027]

Cutting edge has some handgun solids out. Have any of you guys used those to date, or are they too new for much field reporting?

I started some preliminary loading in my 44, and so far really like how they're shooting. Still in the early stages but the idea is to replace my hardcast bullets for big cows, bulls and for use as a mountain-carry load in grizz country. I've had some concerns with hardcast for a small variety of reasons on big bone in heavy animals myself that hasn't so much led me to call failures but have left me wanting better integrity on occasion. I'm giving the cutting edge line a try for that.

[revolvercranker]

Remember when bowling pin shooting was a big craze and they had some special jacketed bullets that had like saw teeth around the nose to grip the pin?

[handgunhuntingafield]

Aug 1, 2024 10:55:39 GMT -5 fm027 said:

Cutting edge has some handgun solids out. Have any of you guys used those to date, or are they too new for much field reporting?

I started some preliminary loading in my 44, and so far really like how they're shooting. Still in the early stages but the idea is to replace my hardcast bullets for big cows, bulls and for use as a mountain-carry load in grizz country. I've had some concerns with hardcast for a small variety of reasons on big bone in heavy animals myself that hasn't so much led me to call failures but have left me wanting better integrity on occasion. I'm giving the cutting edge line a try for that.

I have just shot things….other than animals with them. So far they just work like any other solid but have less of a chance of deforming. Accuracy is awesome. Aa9 or enforcer (for most magnums) is your top pick.

[potatojudge]

hammerbullets.com/product/357-cal-150gr-jack-hammer/

I wonder how this profile would bite given a raking shot on bone.

Seems like a wide meplat, straight ogive, solid bullet with this sort of hollow point dish would have a decent chance of turning into the bone rather than away.

[45MAN]

BUFFALO BULLETS


link




BULLET ON THE LEFT IS A 320gr PUNCH BULLET FIRED FROM A FREEDOM ARMS 454 (AT 454 MV's) AND RECOVERED FROM A CAPE BUFFALO IN 2009. BEEN 15 YEARS SO I AM NOT GOING TO VENTURE A "IIRC" GUESS AS TO WHERE IT HIT OR WHERE IT WAS RECOVERED AS I DID NOT CATALOG SUCH MATTERS, BUT THE BULLET DISPLAYS OPTIMUM BULLET INTEGRITY WITH NO DEFORMATION (EXCEPT FOR THE RIFLING ON THE SHANK). BULLET ON THE RIGHT IS A 325gr GC'ed WFN, SHOT OUT OF A 5.5" 5 SHOT SPECIAL MADE SS TEXAS LONGHORN ARMS No. 5 IN 45 COLT, WITH A MV AROUND 1,300fps, RECOVERED FROM A HUGE BODIED WATER BUFFALO. THE CAPE WAS SHOT AT AROUND 50 YARDS, THE WATER BUFFALO AT AROUND 25 YARDS, THE IMPACT VELOCITY OF THE PUNCH BULLET WAS PROBABLY 200 OR MORE fps THAN THE IMPACT MV OF THE WFN CAST. AGAIN I DO NOT RECALL WHERE THE CAST WFN HIT NOR WHERE IT WAS RECOVERED. THE CAST WFN's PRIMARY DEFORMATION IS THAT THE FRONT END OF THE BULLET GOT WIDER. SLOWER SPEEDS KEEP SOME SOME BULLETS FROM FAILING AND ALLOW THEM TO MAINTAIN MORE BULLET INTEGRITY.

I CHOSE THE COVER OF THE COTTAR BOOK AS A BACKGROUND BECAUSE WHEN IT COMES TO BULLET PERFORMANCE "THE EXCEPTION IS THE RULE", e.g. TODAY I WOULD NOT PICK ANY CAST BULLET FOR AFRICA IF I WAS USING 454 TYPE MV's BUT IN A 1996 SAFARI I USED THAT SAME 325gr WFN CAST BULLET AT OVER 1,600fps AND BROADSIDED A LARGE ELAND BULL DEAD CENTER IN THE SHOULDER AND THE BULLET EXITED THE OFF SHOULDER. A FRIEND, ON THE SAME SAFARI, WITH 300gr BEAR CLAW AMMO DEAD CENTERED AN ELAND BULL WITH HIS 375 H&H AND THE BULLET STOPPED MID-WAY THRU THE BULL. I QUIT ON THAT BULLET BECAUSE 1 OUT OF 3 SHOTS WAS ALWAYS A FLYER, ESPECIALLY NOTICEABLE AT 100 METERS.

[handgunhuntingafield]

Aug 1, 2024 14:17:38 GMT -5 potatojudge said:

hammerbullets.com/product/357-cal-150gr-jack-hammer/

I wonder how this profile would bite given a raking shot on bone.

Seems like a wide meplat, straight ogive, solid bullet with this sort of hollow point dish would have a decent chance of turning into the bone rather than away.

When I did all the mono metal testing….those didn’t make the cut. Their more round profile didn’t transfer much energy and the shallow hollow tip/point did not upset.

I spent right at $500 on their bullets for handguns….trying to find one that was impressive.