ORGIVE SHAPE AND REVOLVER BULLET LETHALITY?

[shorty500]

Jul 28, 2024 7:31:29 GMT -5 bamagreg said:

Jul 28, 2024 5:24:43 GMT -5 shorty500 said:

While I dabbled with casting soft nose bullets as well as hollow points decades ago, I stayed with concept of a large caliber with a large meplat.
Whether it was an original Keith or a copy or a rnfp they work with no extra fuss and muss. While I occasionally use an old favorite .44 or .45 , the
460 grain .500 rnfp driven to a modest 1300fps has been my hunting go to for over 20 years

Nothing modest about a 460 grain bullet at 1,300 gps 😊

Actually it’s kinda pretty modest, that’s from a 10-1/2 .500 S&W Magnum so it’s pretty tame lol

[bigbore5]

Modest? That's what my full Linebaugh loads do!

[shorty500]

Jul 28, 2024 13:04:48 GMT -5 bigbore5 said:

Modest? That's what my full Linebaugh loads do!

Well I think we can agree it’s a modest pedestrian speed for a 1.6 case 😝

[sixshot]

I've had Verl's book for over 30 years & it's a hard read, and what I mean is that you have to read it more than once to understand it, he knows his stuff. I also have Marshall Stanton's book but most of it appears to be copied from Verl's book, with a little more information added. I also used softnose cast for a few years, shot my moose with one.
I've shot very few animals with jacketed bullets, maybe 30, but I've shot a lot of animals with cast bullets & I've said it before, for me they have always worked. I think because I've always lived out west I haven't lost sight of most of the animals I've shot & tracking hasn't been a problem most times. A couple of bears gave me a little trouble, bears don't bleed a lot most times, even with a exit hole & I've always get exit holes. A couple of elk & 3-4 deer that I can think of, but I don't remember losing one. I did shoot a buck once with an old model 45 Ruger that we lost but it was running & had been shot earlier by a friend & I was trying to help him finish his job, we never found it.
I say this, I always use heavy bullets, mostly Keith style & in recent years, like the last 10-12 years I've developed a real fondness for cast HP's, the recovery has been quicker, the penetration is still almost always through & through & I've mostly switched to the 640 nose profile. My loading method has also changed a bit although it hasn't came into play except for one or two times. I load the first chamber with the cast HP, followed by solids in case I need to take a bad angle shot at a moving or running animal.
As far as meplat is concerned the 640 profile in the caliber I'm shooting has worked fine over the last several years on deer, antelope, bears, elk & also plains game in Africa. If I need to take a shoulder shot instead of a heart/lung shot it's as simple as rotating the cylinder one round & I bring up a solid & break both shoulders, easy, peasy.
In Africa I shot my Nyala through the lungs with a 282 gr HP, shot the Zebra through the lungs with the same bullet, shot the Kudu through both shoulders with an exit with the same HP, and shot the Gemsbok through both shoulders with an exit with a 250 gr WFN solid with the FA 41 magnum.
Brian Pearce wrote an article several years ago stating that the front driving band does cut a bigger hole than just the meplat & did a test to prove it using ink of the first driving band that showed up on the target. It's in one of the old Handloader issues.

Dick

[handgunhuntingafield]

I think trying to pick out any one design feature and equating that to lethality of the projectile is over simplifying it.

It’s a pretty complex equation with both known and unknown variables.

From known such as impact velocity to unknown (until it happens) shot placement.

Even more unknown to how every single animal is different.

I think the biggest factor, which can’t really be measured, is the end users confidence in their bullet selection. If you are confident in what you have selected, then you should be more comfortable when the shot breaks, thus hopefully making a better shot. Placement always trumps all other factors.

[bula]

Am thinking ogive shape of minimal importance amongst the list of variables. After bore, meplat, velo, etc.. Can we wonder as to ogive shape and ability to track straight thru critters ? The RNFP's go back years, SSK chose TC's.., etc..

[pete]

Jul 27, 2024 21:27:24 GMT -5 Odin said:

Jul 27, 2024 21:03:37 GMT -5 edk said:

Veral does discuss this in his book. I would recommend to find a copy. There you would read straight from the horse's mouth that essentially nothing behind the meplat does any work in a non-expanding handgun bullet. A SWC may punch a nice hole in paper but when in tissue the meplat deflects tissue outward at an angle such that neither the ogive (WFN/LFN/SWC/other) nor the SWC driving band have any terminal effect.

Much the same was preached by Marshal Stanton of Beartooth Bullets. Stanton went so far as to build a calculator by which one could compare the so-called permanent wound channel (the size of the plumbing) left by various sizes of meplat.

I remember that wound calculator, it was on the Beartooth website. I found it to be pretty accurate, although I don't believe in absolutes when talking wounds and lethality in animals, there's just too many variables. Still, from my limited amount of kills and autopsies(I kinda like that part, it's interesting), it was pretty close.

[revolvercranker]

Jul 28, 2024 14:23:15 GMT -5 handgunhuntingafield said:

I think trying to pick out any one design feature and equating that to lethality of the projectile is over simplifying it.

It’s a pretty complex equation with both known and unknown variables.

From known such as impact velocity to unknown (until it happens) shot placement.

Even more unknown to how every single animal is different.

I think the biggest factor, which can’t really be measured, is the end users confidence in their bullet selection. If you are confident in what you have selected, then you should be more comfortable when the shot breaks, thus hopefully making a better shot. Placement always trumps all other factors.

Sir you said the single most important thing "Even more unknown to how every single animal is different."  Even boolitdesigners hollow points aren't going to have the same results EVERY SINGLE TIME!  Ask him why his go too gun before his accident was a Browning shotgun rifle using Hornady sabot slugs.  With that they DON"T go much of anywhere.  He needs to back his words up with pictures of deer shot with his hollow points. He has no excuse now he has a cell phone camera.  I don't believe he has shot anything larger then large whitetail deer. A lot of you on this forum have shot the really big game animals and some of you African dangerous game. 

[bigbore5]

I don't understand why you are choosing to attack bulletdesigner. His design bullets have cleanly taken most of the big game species. There's plenty of the African species that have been taken by his design bullets by members here. The photos of the wound cavities and reports of performance are not hard to find on this site. I have not heard a single bad report.

I admit that I personally have not taken anything larger than black bear with his design bullet, but intend to correct that next year on a bovine. I have disagreed with some of his statements, but the performance members have gotten from his designs, especially the 640 series speaks for itself.

[sixshot]

Good point about not getting the same results every time on game, it just isn't possible. Distance isn't the same so the velocity isn't the same, the angles are different, the animal might be tense, it might be downhill, uphill, quartering away, etc. Everything about hand gun hunting is tough, and gaining confidence is tough using a six gun. So we deal with a lot of factors besides bullet design & integrity.
Most guys use a little more bullet weight than necessary to compensate for distance & angles. Or you can boost the horsepower & hope for more penetration, there's more than one way to get there, you just have to figure out your plan of attack, then decide what bullet will put you in the winners circle. Some choose to go with iron sights, others want a red dot or a regular pistol scope, plenty of choices to be made before a six gunner starts to become successful. As mentioned meplat might be one of the least important things to consider. Where you place the bullet is going to be near the top & for most of us I think complete penetration is important, that means reasonable velocity & bullet weight.
On medium big game like deer a good HP can work wonders if broadside shots are possible, some guys pride themselves on neck or head shots but they can lead to spectacular failures, I seldom ever take one but have done in rare cases, suit yourself. They work great when they work....great! Probably not a bad shot for a stand hunter, I seldom use a stand in the west so I shoot for lungs or shoulders. Not much meat damage when you shoot the lungs.
I've probably taken more animals with a Keith style bullet in 41, 44 or 45 by a 3-1 ratio over any other bullet & never had any regrets, and a fair amount with the Keith bullet in 357 Maximum, the extra horsepower makes a big difference it seems, they don't stay up very long. The Bradshaw/Martin bullet also worked very well on the one deer I took with it 2-3 years ago at about 147'ish yds.
My favorite 45 caliber bullet in the 45 Colt might suprise you, it the #452423 bullet designed for the 45 Auto Rim, runs about 250 grs & designed for the 45 AR & has a wider meplat, there's that word again, than the famous Keith #452424, try it & see, it's a winner. Cast it soft, powder coat it, load it with 18.5 grs of 2400 & you'll be a happy shooter. It will expand to 60 caliber on most animals & Stevie Wonder can track them.

Dick

[handgunhuntingafield]

Well…that discussion turned to 💩 pretty quick with people attacking others……

On a positive note…..I get to start hunting the back country in just over a month using a handgun….

[45MAN]

HOW CLOSE IS THE LYMAN 454423 TO THE COMMERCIALLY CAST 250gr RNFP?

NEVER MIND, LOOKS LIKE THE 454423 IS A SHORT WIDE NOSED SWC TYPE vs A RNFP TYPE, DIFFERENT ORGIVES AND THE LYMAN HAS A WIDER MEPLAT.

[boolitdesigner]

Jul 29, 2024 7:16:12 GMT -5 45MAN said:

HOW CLOSE IS THE LYMAN 454423 TO THE COMMERCIALLY CAST 250gr RNFP?

NEVER MIND, LOOKS LIKE THE 454423 IS A SHORT WIDE NOSED SWC TYPE vs A RNFP TYPE, DIFFERENT ORGIVES AND THE LYMAN HAS A WIDER MEPLAT.

That 454423 is a direct copy from an Ideal mold with very minor differences in the lube groove. That Ideal mold was a very old two cavity mold with the Keith square lube grooves. I just loaded some of them in the 454 Casull cartridge. They fit and feed very well in the Rossi.

[contender]

There are so many variables in hunting game that the ogive shape is considered a low priority by most. As Dick has so eloquently alluded to,, and explained, lots of other factors are more important. I fully agree with his posting of these things. And yes,, bullet placement is the key to much of the success. He mentions neck shots,, and doesn't recommend them. I shoot the neck quite often,, BUT,, my methods of hunting in my area are vastly different than his are. (Again, a variation.) Here in the east,, in my mountains,, distances are often shorter. And we do a lot of stand hunting. And I use a scoped Contender a lot,, that I know I can place a neck shot with ease. And as a Hunter Safety instructor,, I do not even teach that shot,, because most people will not PASS a shot that would be potentially a miss or even worse,, a wounding shot.
Just one of the many variables we handgunners face.
The ogive is probably one of the very last things I consider when I'm building a hunting round. Accuracy of any design,, combined with placement are the 2 biggest keys to successful killing of a game animal. Followed by bullet type/construction for the intended purpose, being a very close 3rd. Those 3 things are paramount items necessary for ethical hunting. Throw in all the other variables,, and ogive isn't even considered by most.

We all desire the best & chase that goal to the point of insanity sometimes. One question I get asked often is; "What's the best bullet for ,,,,,,,,,?" Well, there is no one single answer to any of it. Too many variables. But we all do seem to chase that elusive magic bullet.

[bigbrowndog]

Contenders post and bits and pieces of others mention those things that we all think are “important” to a good clean kill. For me it is over simplifying to say ONE thing is most important or trumps all others. A clean kill is a balance of all things, some higher in percentage than others perhaps, but neither is MOST important, all of the time. Having taken game with .177 air rifles, to 50BMG, and including archery. My conclusion is accuracy is paramount when we choose smaller or minimally capable methods. We can get away with less accuracy as we increase the other parts of the killing equation. We need to remember killing is not our goal, a quick kill that allows easy location of our game is the goal. A good solid balance of all things necessary to provide that should be our goal, IMHO.

If placement or accuracy is more important than a bullets terminal performance then we could kill everything with a ping pong ball. Except that penetration is important also, as is expansion if needed or desired, as is all the things that go into killing an animal. Animals die from loss of oxygenated blood flowing to vital organs, we kill by disrupting that flow. The more disruption you can cause the quicker death comes, the easier it is to find your game. Stopping game is another discussion all together, Central Nervous System disruption is the quickest means to that, but blood flow stoppage doesn’t come quickly from that, it just doesn’t matter, because motor function to the carriage ceases to exist.

That’s my .02 pfennig……..Trapr