ORGIVE SHAPE AND REVOLVER BULLET LETHALITY?

[45MAN]

WHEN GOOD CHOICES FOR REVOLVER HUNTING BULLETS ARE DISCUSSED YOU HEAR MENTION OF DIAMETER, WEIGHT, HP, BONDED, MONOLITHIC, HARDNESS, NOSE SHAPE, MEPLAT WIDTH AND MORE BUT NO MENTION OF THE EFFECT OF THE ORGIVE SHAPE ON BULLET LETHALITY. I DO NOT HAVE VERAL SMITH'S BOOK ON BULLETS AND WONDER IF HE DISCUSSED THIS IN HIS BOOK.

I REALLY LIKE THE COMMERCIALLY CAST 250gr .452 RNFP BULLET AND CONSIDER IT A GOOD KILLER IN 45 COLT LOADS WITH A MV IN THE MID 1,200's. IT HAS A DECENT SIZE MEPLAT BUT CERTAINLY NOT NEAR BEING A WFN. WHAT THIS BULLET DOES HAVE IS A NICE ROUNDED WIDEish ORGIVE. WHEN SHOOTING PAPER WITH THIS BULLET AND WITH SWC's AND BULLETS WITH SLANTED FLATish ORGIVES, e.g. SOME OFFERINGS FROM HUNTERS SUPPLY OR THE TRUNCATED CONE BULLETS, I HAVE ALWAYS FELT LIKE MY RNFP's PUNCHED A BIGGER LOOKING HOLE, SO I AM WONDERING IF THE 250gr RNFP's ORGIVE SHAPE HELPS MAKE IT A GOOD KILLER? LOOKING FOR THOUGHTS, EXPERIENCES, etc.

[boolitdesigner]

Hmmm…… I don’t know if this is going to help or not BUT, a blunt nose solid gets better with diameter. A hollow point (with lesser diameter and weight) kills much faster with a body rib cage shot. I’ve watched a lot of deer (big deer) die in place or a few steps away with MP hollow points while I’ve also watched deer hit in the same place with solids (nice blunt Keith swc’s) RUN forever. If you want a non tracking kill, break it down so it can’t run off and it will die slower, but it will die.

[bula]

This will be interesting. I've not stood over enough big dead things with a revolver in hand to weigh in. The shape of what is between the meplat and bore size.. Great question !

[bula]

I've preferred conclusions drawn in the field, over a gutpile as I say, but this might be the place for gelatin testing. If bore and meplat the same, how does the ogive shape change things, or not ?

[bigbrowndog]

I think it is not just the bullet design, but the velocity, and the density of the target and the actual bullet placement. It is a combination of these things that allow a bullet to perform as envisioned. A WFN delivered at moderate velocity against a light boned and relatively narrow broadside animal will not produce the desired effects as quickly as that same bullet and load against a denser, heavier boned or thicker animal.
Which is why a quickly expanding bullet works better against the thinner light boned animal. That same moderate load with WFN delivered through a ribcage May produce the desired results but would deliver them quicker if the bullet landed through shoulders. The difference in killing may only be seconds but 15-30 seconds is a lot of time for an animal to have when it runs into dense cover or timber.
My most used example is a personal experience, my pronghorn doe was hit broadside through the shoulders with a 465gr. WFN, distance was 85 yards, muzzle velocity was 975fps. At the shot she ran towards me, I fired again at 50ish yards, this time just missing the shoulders and landing in the ribcage, she ran again coming to 40ish yards, the next shot was the same as the second but a bit higher, this shocked the spine and she dropped, but remained head up. The last shot entered her nose and traveled out the back of her head, finally KILLING her. All of the shooting took place in about 90 seconds, would she have died from the first shot??? Probably, but she was in range and on her feet so I kept firing. My conclusion was, too much bullet for the intended game, an expanding bullet would have performed better given the lack of resistance for the bullet to act upon. Other than the last shot through the nose all hits were within 6” of each other and all would have been fatal,…..eventually. I decided then and there to place more consideration on game and bullet and not rely on simply drilling a 1/2” hole through game to kill it. Medium game (deer, pronghorn) seems more likely to react as desired with an expanding g bullet, than one designed for penetration. Pigs, bear, elk, etc. are sufficiently dense and large enough to benefit from penetration more so than expansion.

Just my .02 pfennig

Trapr

[bushog]

Veral’s book talks about expansion/accuracy but not about lethality.

It is still available from what I understand…

[45MAN]

Jul 27, 2024 15:31:09 GMT -5 bushog said:

Veral’s book talks about expansion/accuracy but not about lethality.

It is still available from what I understand…

IIRC FROM WHAT I READ ABOUT WHAT VERAL SAID, HE FOCUSED ON TISSUE DISPLACEMENT DIAMETER, GUESSING NOW, BUT MAYBE THE LARGER THE DIAMETER OF THE TISSUE DISPLACEMENT THE DEADLIER THE BULLET? ? ?

[bigbore5]

I've used the Lyman 452664 rnfp for years on pigs and black bear. Works good on them at 1100fps and up. I prefer a good jhp or softer cast hp for deer, with the MP 452-640 lg hp being my go to in 45C.

My most used bullets for deer are the MP 358429-clone with the large hp pin in 357mag and the MP 359-640 with the cup point pin in the 357 max. Both weigh in the 160gr+ range and are plenty adequate for the small body deer around here, showing some expansion and nice exit holes. Deer are usually down inside 20yds on broadside shots through the lungs. Ranges rarely exceed 40yds in the wooded hollars I hunt

[edk]

Jul 27, 2024 13:48:46 GMT -5 45MAN said:

WHEN GOOD CHOICES FOR REVOLVER HUNTING BULLETS ARE DISCUSSED YOU HEAR MENTION OF DIAMETER, WEIGHT, HP, BONDED, MONOLITHIC, HARDNESS, NOSE SHAPE, MEPLAT WIDTH AND MORE BUT NO MENTION OF THE EFFECT OF THE ORGIVE SHAPE ON BULLET LETHALITY. I DO NOT HAVE VERAL SMITH'S BOOK ON BULLETS AND WONDER IF HE DISCUSSED THIS IN HIS BOOK.

Veral does discuss this in his book. I would recommend to find a copy. There you would read straight from the horse's mouth that essentially nothing behind the meplat does any work in a non-expanding handgun bullet. A SWC may punch a nice hole in paper but when in tissue the meplat deflects tissue outward at an angle such that neither the ogive (WFN/LFN/SWC/other) nor the SWC driving band have any terminal effect.

[Odin]

Jul 27, 2024 21:03:37 GMT -5 edk said:

Jul 27, 2024 13:48:46 GMT -5 45MAN said:

WHEN GOOD CHOICES FOR REVOLVER HUNTING BULLETS ARE DISCUSSED YOU HEAR MENTION OF DIAMETER, WEIGHT, HP, BONDED, MONOLITHIC, HARDNESS, NOSE SHAPE, MEPLAT WIDTH AND MORE BUT NO MENTION OF THE EFFECT OF THE ORGIVE SHAPE ON BULLET LETHALITY. I DO NOT HAVE VERAL SMITH'S BOOK ON BULLETS AND WONDER IF HE DISCUSSED THIS IN HIS BOOK.

Veral does discuss this in his book. I would recommend to find a copy. There you would read straight from the horse's mouth that essentially nothing behind the meplat does any work in a non-expanding handgun bullet. A SWC may punch a nice hole in paper but when in tissue the meplat deflects tissue outward at an angle such that neither the ogive (WFN/LFN/SWC/other) nor the SWC driving band have any terminal effect.

Much the same was preached by Marshal Stanton of Beartooth Bullets. Stanton went so far as to build a calculator by which one could compare the so-called permanent wound channel (the size of the plumbing) left by various sizes of meplat.

[boolitdesigner]

Good points have been made, however when a bullet starts shedding a hollow point, breaking off a cross sawn nose or the consistency of bubble gum, the energy transfer becomes a lot more violent. You who wonder about this need to watch the reaction of the animal closely when hit by various nose styles and will see some dramatic differences occur……. anywhere from a fly bite to an M80 going off.

[Shakey]

You absolutely need to get a copy of Veral's book as well as Stanton's.

I haven't read them in a while but, as I recall, they somewhat agree but not completely.

I do recall that Veral believes that meplat size and velocity are about all that matters. Not just impact velocity but exit as well. Also, there is a sweet spot for velocity and more is not necessarily better.

I don't have enough experience to feel comfortable even expressing an opinion as to their correctness but they do offer some very good food for thought.

Not trusting my memory much so now I have to go reread them to see if I have lied to you.

[shorty500]

While I dabbled with casting soft nose bullets as well as hollow points decades ago, I stayed with concept of a large caliber with a large meplat.
Whether it was an original Keith or a copy or a rnfp they work with no extra fuss and muss. While I occasionally use an old favorite .44 or .45 , the
460 grain .500 rnfp driven to a modest 1300fps has been my hunting go to for over 20 years

[45MAN]

VERAL's BOOK IS NOT AVAILABLE ON EBAY (I BEEN LOOKING) BUT HE HAS A WEBSITE WITH A TEL # AND I WILL TRY TO CALL THIS WEEK. WILL CHECK EBAY FOR STANTON's BOOK.

AS A SIDE NOTE: SINCE FOR MANY YEARS I PURSUED BIG AND BAD WITH REVOLVERS I BECAME A BULLET INTEGRITY PROPONENT AND DID NOT CONCERN MYSELF MUCH WITH WHITETAIL BULLETS OTHER THAN I USED THE 300gr HORNADY XTP (PRE-MAG) ON A HUGE BODIED ELK (HEART SHOT) AND SOME WHITETAIL, AXIS AND SIKA DEER AT HIGH MV's. SO TO THIS DAY I STILL FIND MYSELF GRAVITATING TO BULLET INTEGRITY BUT I HAVE SOME SHORT NOSED 270gr CAST HP's FROM RANDY BARNETT THAT FIT IN MY MODEL 97 45 COLT THAT I WILL USE ON WHITETAIL THIS UPCOMING SEASON.

[bamagreg]

Jul 28, 2024 5:24:43 GMT -5 shorty500 said:

While I dabbled with casting soft nose bullets as well as hollow points decades ago, I stayed with concept of a large caliber with a large meplat.
Whether it was an original Keith or a copy or a rnfp they work with no extra fuss and muss. While I occasionally use an old favorite .44 or .45 , the
460 grain .500 rnfp driven to a modest 1300fps has been my hunting go to for over 20 years

Nothing modest about a 460 grain bullet at 1,300 gps 😊