edk
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,118
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Post by edk on Jan 23, 2024 12:04:12 GMT -5
I understand what y’all are saying. Do you consider 13 gr of HS-6 pushing a 255 gr bullet at 1050 fps to be over pressure? I understand it’s over specs for the old colts, but buffalo bore would consider that a standard pressure heavy round. Not that they’re the authority on this.. Linebaugh's article: "Gunnotes...Smith & Wesson Mod 25-5" considers 13 gr of HS-6 and a 260 gr bullet his "general duty load" and quotes a velocity of 925fps. For the Smith 25-5 specifically he seems to switch to H-110 for velocities above 1000fps. web.archive.org/web/20180525063939/http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=12Now in his classic article: "The .45 Colt - Dissolving the Myth, Discovering the Potential" the Smith 25-5 is not mentioned. Again the load of 13 gr of HS-6 and a 260 gr bullet is offered in the context of: "My personal loads include only 3 loads that I have settled on for all my handgun shooting. All are safe in Rugers..." toward the end of the article. Note that here the velocity cited is your 1050fps and there is no pressure figure accompanying this data point. However throughout the article he speaks of 7" pressure barrels which would approximate a 5-1/2" revolver. So having no pressure equipment I'm no authority on this either and must rely on the published information of others. In my previous post I failed to do any research prior to suggesting that the load may be hard on the revolver albeit safe. I must have been thinking the 13gr was a Tier 3 Ruger-only load of which the likes Linebaugh did indeed fire from his Smith and subsequently wrote: "While the S&W will take these loads safely such loads will greatly shorten the life of your gun". So in conclusion it appears your intended load will be safe but fall 125fps short of your goal. Furthermore it was good to remind myself that Linebaugh considered the Smith 25-5 safe (although certainly not recommended) with Ruger-only level loads.
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Post by bigmuddy on Jan 23, 2024 13:27:02 GMT -5
Testing HS6 in my 4 3/4” USFA;
260 gr WFN
12.0 gr. 967 fps 13.0 gr. 1035 fps.
Extreme spread was twice as high with the heavier load. For some reason I can’t find the results for 12.5 grains.🤷🏽♂️ Guess I didn’t try it in the USFA. I was trying to duplicate Ashley Emmerson’s carry load in his USFA, and 12.0 did it.
To get back on topic, the tier two loads in the Brian Pearce April 2022 Handloader are perfect for the M25 S&W. Since that article I rarely load heavier than these loads in any of my 45 Colts. I’ve referenced that article so much the pages are starting to fall out. Surprisingly, to me anyway, there were no HS6 loads in that article.
Dan
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Post by bushog on Jan 23, 2024 15:39:41 GMT -5
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Post by marlin35 on Jan 23, 2024 17:37:50 GMT -5
I understand what y’all are saying. Do you consider 13 gr of HS-6 pushing a 255 gr bullet at 1050 fps to be over pressure? I understand it’s over specs for the old colts, but buffalo bore would consider that a standard pressure heavy round. Not that they’re the authority on this.. Linebaugh's article: "Gunnotes...Smith & Wesson Mod 25-5" considers 13 gr of HS-6 and a 260 gr bullet his "general duty load" and quotes a velocity of 925fps. For the Smith 25-5 specifically he seems to switch to H-110 for velocities above 1000fps. web.archive.org/web/20180525063939/http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=12Now in his classic article: "The .45 Colt - Dissolving the Myth, Discovering the Potential" the Smith 25-5 is not mentioned. Again the load of 13 gr of HS-6 and a 260 gr bullet is offered in the context of: "My personal loads include only 3 loads that I have settled on for all my handgun shooting. All are safe in Rugers..." toward the end of the article. Note that here the velocity cited is your 1050fps and there is no pressure figure accompanying this data point. However throughout the article he speaks of 7" pressure barrels which would approximate a 5-1/2" revolver. So having no pressure equipment I'm no authority on this either and must rely on the published information of others. In my previous post I failed to do any research prior to suggesting that the load may be hard on the revolver albeit safe. I must have been thinking the 13gr was a Tier 3 Ruger-only load of which the likes Linebaugh did indeed fire from his Smith and subsequently wrote: "While the S&W will take these loads safely such loads will greatly shorten the life of your gun". So in conclusion it appears your intended load will be safe but fall 125fps short of your goal. Furthermore it was good to remind myself that Linebaugh considered the Smith 25-5 safe (although certainly not recommended) with Ruger-only level loads. Thank you for this response! His 13 gr HS-6 load is my standard in my Blackhawk, and just wanted to verify that these loads would be in the wheelhouse for a model 25. My main reason for asking is because that’s what the majority of my loaded rounds are comprised of. 260 @ 925 is perfect for my uses.
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S&W 25-5
Jan 23, 2024 17:39:03 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by marlin35 on Jan 23, 2024 17:39:03 GMT -5
Thank you, all the links I had found online were expired. I will give it a read now.
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S&W 25-5
Jan 23, 2024 18:24:42 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by tentcamper on Jan 23, 2024 18:24:42 GMT -5
Excellent article. Thanks for posting the link. I'm also looking into the Smith 25-15. I have been reading a lot about the history behind the 44 Special Triple Lock and the subsequent models. Very interesting development and history. Although the 25-15 is not the same caliber and I'd love a 44 Special but the 45 Colt works as well for me.
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Post by marlin35 on Jan 23, 2024 18:36:00 GMT -5
Excellent article. Thanks for posting the link. I'm also looking into the Smith 25-15. I have been reading a lot about the history behind the 44 Special Triple Lock and the subsequent models. Very interesting development and history. Although the 25-15 is not the same caliber and I'd love a 44 Special but the 45 Colt works as well for me. Good luck to you! Maybe we’ll find our guns and start a thread about how great they are.
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Post by Encore64 on Jan 23, 2024 19:03:29 GMT -5
I bought a S&W 25-15 some years ago and it completely changed my view.
I got a chance to check this one out and it was dimensionally perfect.
Tight barrel gap, .452", fairly snug chambers and locked up tight.
So, home it came. Since then I've added quiet a few more "Classics." None have disappointed.
I'll remind everyone that the S&W 25 is regularly rechambered to 460 Rowland. Now, that's not for me and I don't think it's a great idea. But, it's successfully done on a regular occasion.
I keep my 45 Colt S&W Loads at 21K and below. It does anything I need with style and beauty.
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Post by bradshaw on Jan 23, 2024 19:14:40 GMT -5
edk.... those who think there may be a correlation between wear induced by huge consumption of mild loads vs modest consumption of Rocks & Dynamite loads may wish to consider this: one shot can destroy a gun. Such was the case of a member of the old Hub City Rifle & Pistol Club in Lafayette, Louisiana. The shooter a had beautiful Colt second generation Peacemaker with 4-3/4” barrel in .45 Colt. He bought a box of gray market ammo loaded with 255grain lead. Wrecked his gun. He told me too late for me to assure him I treat unknown aftermarket ammo same as unknown handloads.
S&W makes strong cylinders. However, I would not compare an N frame to a Blackhawk frame. The battering of heavy bullets or heavy loads, especially on a loose vs firm cylinder-frame fit, dooms the double action to early retirement. This is too well known in silhouette to deny. Bill Ruger was not going to allow his Redhawk to suffer any such fate. Bill hoped it would lay to rest all the malarky about “weak investment cast” construction.
Folks who shoot Rocks & Dynamite in their Smith & Wessons should consider the revolver a consumable. My M-29 8-3/8” that had its share of play in IHMSA silhouette never tasted upper tier ram loads I put in old and New Model Super Blackhawks, although I hot-loaded the Sierra 220 FPJ as Federal worked toward commercially loading the Sierra silhouette bullet (Federal 44C), cratering 1/2-inch mild steel pigs @ 100 meters. A call from Anoka, Minnesota informed me the load wrecked a Marlin .44 Mag. Visits to Roosevelt Avenue in Springfield, Masschusetts kept the M-29 tight, which included setting the barrel back for forcing cone erosion and today you will not buy a tighter fit-up S&W.
A feature of handloading is to cocktail your round to where it feels right. Let the target and the feel of shooting it define the sweet spot. Not some theoretical pressure or elevated velocity unjustified at the target. Stratospheric loads diminish room for a pressure excursion.
Were I to pack a Model 25 .45 Colt, first it must sing sweetly from the target. David Bradshaw
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S&W 25-5
Jan 23, 2024 19:55:23 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by marlin35 on Jan 23, 2024 19:55:23 GMT -5
Once again, counting my chicks before the eggs go to hatching..does 2dogs make sights for Model 25’s?
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edk
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,118
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Post by edk on Jan 23, 2024 22:53:12 GMT -5
edk.... those who think there may be a correlation between wear induced by huge consumption of mild loads vs modest consumption of Rocks & Dynamite loads may wish to consider this: one shot can destroy a gun. Such was the case of a member of the old Hub City Rifle & Pistol Club in Lafayette, Louisiana. The shooter a had beautiful Colt second generation Peacemaker with 4-3/4” barrel in .45 Colt. He bought a box of gray market ammo loaded with 255grain lead. Wrecked his gun. He told me too late for me to assure him I treat unknown aftermarket ammo same as unknown handloads. S&W makes strong cylinders. However, I would not compare an N frame to a Blackhawk frame. The battering of heavy bullets or heavy loads, especially on a loose vs firm cylinder-frame fit, dooms the double action to early retirement. This is too well known in silhouette to deny. Bill Ruger was not going to allow his Redhawk to suffer any such fate. Bill hoped it would lay to rest all the malarky about “weak investment cast” construction. Folks who shoot Rocks & Dynamite in their Smith & Wessons should consider the revolver a consumable. My M-29 8-3/8” that had its share of play in IHMSA silhouette never tasted upper tier ram loads I put in old and New Model Super Blackhawks, although I hot-loaded the Sierra 220 FPJ as Federal worked toward commercially loading the Sierra silhouette bullet (Federal 44C), cratering 1/2-inch mild steel pigs @ 100 meters. A call from Anoka, Minnesota informed me the load wrecked a Marlin .44 Mag. Visits to Roosevelt Avenue in Springfield, Masschusetts kept the M-29 tight, which included setting the barrel back for forcing cone erosion and today you will not buy a tighter fit-up S&W. A feature of handloading is to cocktail your round to where it feels right. Let the target and the feel of shooting it define the sweet spot. Not some theoretical pressure or elevated velocity unjustified at the target. Stratospheric loads diminish room for a pressure excursion. Were I to pack a Model 25 .45 Colt, first it must sing sweetly from the target. David Bradshaw David, I don't understand your points as they relate to my posts. To me your first point reads like this: don't compare one rate of wear with a different rate of wear; consider catastrophic failure. Do you want to re-phrase that? As to the second point I was referencing a Linebaugh article where it plainly said there is no comparing a N frame to a Blackhawk. So your points are lost on me.
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Post by bradshaw on Jan 24, 2024 1:35:24 GMT -5
edk.... thank you. I should not have addressed my comments to you. A recurrent theme of threads on .Smith & Wessons chambered for .45 Colt centers on “How hot can I load for it?” Persons I know who enjoy an N frame .45 Colt don’t pretend it’s a .44 Magnum. David Bradshaw
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edk
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,118
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Post by edk on Jan 24, 2024 8:34:24 GMT -5
No worries, I was a little confused is all. To be fair Bill Ruger had 60-70 years of hindsight when conceiving the Redhawk learning what the N-frame could and could not do and was smart about taking a step forward, addressing weaknesses. It's remarkable that S&W is basically still offering a 100 year old design and probably they should have done more than the minimal "performance package" enhancement 30 years ago. The Redhawk was my first big bore revolver and the internals on mine were beautifully worked over by Chris Peters retaining the factory springs of course. I still prefer the grip stud design of the GP100 and I think my favorite Ruger DA big bore revolver would be something Ruger never made: the Bowen GP44.
I still enjoy a N-frame revolver particularly for it's balance of power, packability and graceful lines. Even though they may not be the best choice for heavier loads, now that I prefer moderate loads anyhow the slim profile barreled mountain gun in 44 or 45 is just great. Either it or a 25-5, which this thread is about, are great choices but as you point out best for someone who has matured beyond the one-track mind of only Rocks & Dynamite.
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Post by bradshaw on Jan 24, 2024 12:42:55 GMT -5
Providing we have decent alignment, the issue is 1) chamber exit hole diameter, and 2) barrel groove diameter. Never an issue in .44 and .41 Magnum, always an issue in .45 Colt.
Without bullet stabilizing dimensions straightened out, S&W .45 Colt cannot achieve parity with S&W .44 and .41 mags.
SAAMI fumbles SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute) should make available all cartridge and chamber specifications & drawings----from earliest data to present. Manufacturers, handloaders, and gunsmiths need readily available clear references, not confusion. It is capricious and arbitrary to drop from data cartridges which have been in the pipeline.
To increase its recognition and credibility, SAAMI should collect and publish data on obsolete cartridges, extending back as far as metallic cartridge data exists, to inception of the cartridge era. Back through and predating the rimfire .44 Henry, .54 Burnside, etc. David Bradshaw
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S&W 25-5
Jan 24, 2024 14:16:32 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by marlin35 on Jan 24, 2024 14:16:32 GMT -5
edk.... thank you. I should not have addressed my comments to you. A recurrent theme of threads on .Smith & Wessons chambered for .45 Colt centers on “ How hot can I load for it?” Persons I know who enjoy an N frame .45 Colt don’t pretend it’s a .44 Magnum. David Bradshaw My questions on how to load for the model 25 come from the fact that I am a young man with not nearly the experience of many (most) here on this site. My first revolver was an Italian clone, and when I fell in love with the .45 colt cartridge and decided to let that be my introduction to reloading, I traded the Italian for a Ruger blackhawk. I did this to protect myself, so that I could gain experience in reloading with a safe platform. I am still learning, and knowing that the model 25 is not as strong as a Blackhawk, wanted to verify a load that has become standard for my Blackhawk (linebaugh’s 13gr HS-6) for use in the smith. I am in no way a “rocks and dynamite” reloader. I just wanted to be sure that what I felt was a sensible load for the MODERN .45 colt, would be appropriate for a working smith in .45 colt without unnecessarily shortening its life.
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