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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2023 12:28:20 GMT -5
What are the benefits of doing 357 max cylinders in Blackhawks and vaqueros. They look cool. But make a very short barrel tenon. Do they wear differently? My regular ruger bisley cylinder fits the ruger only mp bullet with ample room. The longer cylinder would offer more jump space. I'm wondering it's aesthetic or actually practical. Thanks.
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Post by z1r on Mar 22, 2023 13:07:24 GMT -5
What are the benefits of doing 357 max cylinders in Blackhawks and vaqueros. They look cool. But make a very short barrel tenon. Do they wear differently? My regular ruger bisley cylinder fits the ruger only mp bullet with ample room. The longer cylinder would offer more jump space. I'm wondering it's aesthetic or actually practical. Thanks. I first discovered this "conversion" when I was given a box of Buffalo Bore 44 Mag Redhawk only loads by Payton Miller of Guns and Ammo. I called Buffalo Bore to enquire as to why and was told that it was due to the OAL not pressures. Seems that load would not fit in a SBH cylinder, too long. Duh! So, more research on the subject led to John Gallagher who told me he could convert my SBH by installing a Maximum cylinder. Sadly, I never got to have him do that conversion for me. When he had the time, I didn't have the money, and when I had the money, he'd become too popular and neither of us could locate a maximum cylinder. So, thanks to a friend and forum member, I now have a Maximum Cylinder and can embark on that project at long last. It'll be my tribute to John! Sorry for getting sidetracked, the benefit would be to allow longer bullets to be used in the longer cylinder. That same friend is on a quest to have a long cylinder 45 Colt built on a mid-frame, though his intended use doesn't involve high pressure loads, just heavier bullets at moderate velocities. |
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Post by bradshaw on Mar 22, 2023 13:23:26 GMT -5
What are the benefits of doing 357 max cylinders in Blackhawks and vaqueros. They look cool. But make a very short barrel tenon. Do they wear differently? My regular ruger bisley cylinder fits the ruger only mp bullet with ample room. The longer cylinder would offer more jump space. I'm wondering it's aesthetic or actually practical. Thanks. ***** Cylinder length is a long topic. A few basics: Long cylinder* Slower BARREL FACE EROSION (commonly called FORCING CONE EROSION, although, there is a technical difference). Applies especially to large charges of slow powder. * Shorter BARREL TENON STICKOUT (for a giver length window). Support around forcing cone. * Better combustion with some cartridges cases and powders. * Accommodates long cartridge case. * Accommodates long bullets. Short cylinder* Less weight, with less iflywheel effect. Rotation accelerates faster, stops with less impact on BOLT (aka stop, cylinder catch), and bolt notch. * Faster cylinder face erosion. * Longer BARREL TENON STICKOUT (for a given window). * Faster BARREL FACE EROSION. * Claims of improved accuracy with wadcutter target ammo. Adapting .357 Maximum cylinder to Blackhawk/Super Blackhawk frameOriginal prototype .357 Maximum used a New Model Blackhawk frame. (The New Model Blackhawk and NM Super Blackhawk are the same frame.) With a long cylinder to chamber the original 1.490-inch Remington Maximum case. The cylinder crowds the Blackhawk window. Shooting quickly progressed to a stretched frame----the SRM----and 1.605-inch case. To shorten a .357 Maximum cylinder for the Blackhawk frame and chamber to .45 Colt, chamber-to-bore alignment should be checked, with chambers cut to align with bore. If there is runout and the holes are enlarged concentrically, misalignment will infect the finished chambers. Unless the gunsmith can correct a misalignment issue with the re-chamber, I see no point... .... unless you have a long bullet of high ballistic coefficient.... Or, you want the look. David Bradshaw |
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Post by potatojudge on Mar 22, 2023 13:26:18 GMT -5
I’ve not seen anyone use a max cylinder for a 1.4 inch cut down 414 or 445, but I suppose they could.
Otherwise the benefit is use of some specific bullets and whatever pressure relief you get loading everything long
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2023 13:41:50 GMT -5
All great info. Thank you for your time.
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edk
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,153
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Post by edk on Mar 22, 2023 13:53:50 GMT -5
The physics of the difference in BARREL FACE EROSION erosion is not obvious. Assuming cylinder gaps are equal and the "short tenon" is other than completely flush with the cylinder frame as most appear to be. If the tenon were perfectly flush then that effect would be a little easier to grasp.
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Post by bradshaw on Mar 22, 2023 13:57:34 GMT -5
All great info. Thank you for your time. ***** I prefer a long cylinder for a given window. This even applies to the .38 Special in belly guns. Emphatically so in magnum. My own experiments years ago, between S&W .357 Mag M-19 (long cylinder) and M-28 (short cylinder), showed less barrel face erosion from the same loads of Hercules 2400. Loads below full----“mid-mag” I called ‘em, allowed rather continuous fire through the K frame Model 19 without cracking the forcing cone or springing a chamber. That was before revolvers found stainless steel. A 416 or similar stainless barrel has shown better resistance to barrel face erosion than chromoly. Mind you, the so-called average shooter may not live long enough to discover a difference. David Bradshaw |
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Post by bradshaw on Mar 22, 2023 14:17:00 GMT -5
The physics of the difference in BARREL FACE EROSION erosion is not obvious. Assuming cylinder gaps are equal and the "short tenon" is other than completely flush with the cylinder frame as most appear to be. If the tenon were perfectly flush then that effect would be a little easier to grasp. ***** Whatever the physical property of compared metal, a large gap allows more particles to escape in the rush of combusting powder. My humble reading sees ball propellant more abrasive than stick or flake, but this doesn’t account for such things a s heat and presence or absence of nitroglycerine. Believe want you want. S&W has set back barrels on K and N frame revolvers for this shooter. Ruger, also. As for the tenon perfectly flush against cylinder window, no thanks. This shooter likes a hub or gas ring for the bearing surface and for gas deflection. The .357 Mag is a great cartridge to demonstrate the slower face erosion from a longer cylinder. I have no history to validate or refute some PPC claims of superior accuracy of. 38 Special 148 Wadcutter from a short cylinder. Nor have I tried 148 Wadcutter in a Blackhawk .357 Maximum----which shoots .38 Special JHP and .357 Mag JHP very well. David Bradshaw |
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edk
.375 Atomic
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Post by edk on Mar 22, 2023 17:51:11 GMT -5
It’s not a matter of wanting to believe in a particular bias with blind faith…
Give me two Ruger Super Blackhawks:
First has say a standard cylinder, 0.004 gap, 11* forcing cone and standard length tenon.
Second has rechambered 357 max cylinder with stubby tenon and everything else the same.
Why will the barrel faces wear at different rates if they fire the same type and quantity loads? I’m simply looking to understand it.
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Post by bradshaw on Mar 22, 2023 18:49:10 GMT -5
It’s not a matter of wanting to believe in a particular bias with blind faith… Give me two Ruger Super Blackhawks: First has say a standard cylinder, 0.004 gap, 11* forcing cone and standard length tenon. Second has rechambered 357 max cylinder with stubby tenon and everything else the same. Why will the barrel faces wear at different rates if they fire the same type and quantity loads? I’m simply looking to understand it. ***** Sideblast is more fierce from the shorter cylinder. As for the 11-degree forcing cone, it's been standard at S&W and Ruger since water ran downhill. Any “custom” 11-degree cone adopts an industrial standard. Doubt there is any magicc to the 11-degree included-angle cone; it’s a compromise to accommodate a bit of chamber-to-bore misalignment, while keeping the cone short. Also, don’t forget the ROOT DIAMETER of the FORCING CONE. For a given root diameter, a low-angle cone is cut deeper. For forty years, major manufacturers have screwed up forcing cones. All by itself, an off-axis, rough, or too-deep forcing cone can ruin the accuracy of a beautiful barrel. Cylinder gap ranks low on the accuracy scale, well below the much ballyhooed crown. Were the ORCHESTRA of DIMENSIONS which compose REVOLVER ACCURACY described as a mountain, I would stack it from the peak... * bore & rifling. * forcing cone. * chambers. * chamber-to-bore alignment. However, since revolver accuracy is an orchestra of dimensions, the parts influence the whole in different ways, based upon individual relationships. Brilliant performances have been turned in with S&W, Ruger, and Dan Wesson Arms, and the Colt Python, each with noticeable tenon protrusion into the cylinder window. The drawback to tenon stickout is when the tenon wall is thin and subjected to 1) high pressure, 2) heavy bullets, 3) chamber-to-bore misalignment, or 4) all of the above. If a shooter likes the look of a long cylinder, that is enough. To reduce wear on the barrel face from high pressure, tall powder charge, or hot powder, the long cylinder helps. TTP (Time to Peak, or Time to Pressure)We do not get to watch the burning curve of the loads we shoot. We do know a pressure CURVE is better than a pressure SPIKE. The more combustion laps into the cylinder gap, the more it acts like a cutting torch. If the powder contains nitroglycerine (double base powder), it acts like the oxygen trigger on an acetylene torch. Thus, a short cylinder exposes the barrel face to more torch. David Bradshaw |
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edk
.375 Atomic
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Post by edk on Mar 22, 2023 19:28:18 GMT -5
Simply put: bullet exits cylinder later with respect to time-pressure curve in longer cylinder thus reducing blast. Good explanation David although our conversation seems akin to a sparring match. Just trying to educate myself here - not prove anything.
Ed - the one with the cauliflower ears
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Post by squawberryman on Mar 22, 2023 19:46:25 GMT -5
Cylinder windows filled with cylinder are coooool.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2023 20:00:58 GMT -5
Cylinder windows filled with cylinder are coooool. I think the same, but I figured there was some possible benefit to it as well. |
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shorty500
.327 Meteor
too many dirty harry movies created me!
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Post by shorty500 on Mar 22, 2023 21:30:33 GMT -5
Cylinder windows filled with cylinder are coooool. I think the same, but I figured there was some possible benefit to it as well. Very cool indeed! |
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Post by Lee Martin on Mar 22, 2023 21:54:32 GMT -5
I’ve not seen anyone use a max cylinder for a 1.4 inch cut down 414 or 445, but I suppose they could. Otherwise the benefit is use of some specific bullets and whatever pressure relief you get loading everything long David summed it up well. For me, the advantage has always been long bullets in standard cases or simply longer cases. My .414 Razorback uses the entire window for the 1.40" hulls. It's even long enough to use longer bullets in the lengthened brass.  -Lee www.singleactions.com "Chasing perfection five shots at a time" |
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