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Post by contender on Aug 14, 2016 13:07:14 GMT -5
We can all monday morning quarterback this issue to death. As noted,,, this will likely be discussed to death for decades.
Why?
Because the abnormal happened. Not what is normally preached or even felt by most.
As I've aged, I've seen miracles happen, and can only say it was because of a Higher Power,,, God. I've also seen things happen that defied logic, and again, I can only say,,, "It's because God wanted it that way."
I've adopted a saying; "Only God determines when you are to be called home." Now we all know folks who choose to die by their own hands & I know God had that in mind. And we've all seen horrific accidents or heard stories of death defying incidents where people should have died but instead of survived. To me,,,, it says; "God wasn't ready for them."
All that said,,, we mere mortals can only assess what we think & feel in regards to such incidents. Phil is human, and has a wealth of actual experience. Being human,,, he can easily make mistakes. I'm sure he will tall us all that he made a mistake,,, UNLESS by admitting it,,, would place him in jeopardy of being sued. Dick has made some excellent points here & are based upon experiences and an educated mind. My personal experiences with bears is nowhere near many of y'all, so I defer to those who do have the experience & knowledge. And we has mere humans must make our own choices. For me,,, if I were to be fishing for salmon in Ak, I can guarantee I will NOT be carying a 9mm, a 357 mag, or any other caliber firearm that I did not have the confidence in being able to deliver a lethal kill upon a large brown bear.
Lastly,,, I also noticed that neither Phil or the client appear to have Bear Spray on their person. It's my understanding that bear spray, should be carried in a place for immediate access, such as on the front of the chest. I got this from the folks who make & sell Counter Assault spray. By the lack of visible bear spray, and no mentioning of it,,, makes me wonder why.
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jwp475
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Post by jwp475 on Aug 14, 2016 13:19:29 GMT -5
Posted by Phil on another web site, posted Aug 11, 2:21 AM Hide Post quote: Originally posted by Bill/Oregon: That took a very cool head and a steady hand for such a favorable outcome with a 9mm. I'd be a little less interested in the fishing after that episode and very interested in a double martini. Phil's reply You been talking with the clients ? The fact is that it was an unfortunate incident and, although I had tested the Buffalo Bore ammo in a number of handgun calibers and was satisfied that it would work, there was a certain amount of luck involved. Even though the bear was only 6 feet away, had the bear come directly for me I am certainl I would had killed it. but the fact that it went for my clients, and was between me and them, made shooting dicy as I certainly did not want to hit them ! I guess in that one situation it was a good thing that the 9mm rounds stayed in the bear. Of course it was a large male that probaly weighed over 900 pounds . Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com Posts: 2907 | Location: Bristol Bay | Registered: 24 April 2004
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Post by dougader on Aug 14, 2016 13:41:39 GMT -5
Oh, geez. So now we're opening up the 30-06 on grizzly debate, too!??! Ack! Seems I read of a guide who took a German woman to hunt Alaskan Brownies. She shot the bear with her 30-06, and the guide went in after the bear and shot it several more times with his 30-06, and he got mauled for his trouble. While the guide recovered in the hospital, others went looking for the bear but never found it. A year or so later, the guide is out in the same area with another client... who shoots a bear that then runs into the thicket. Guide goes in after the bear, this time with a 458 Win Mag. Bear circles back around the guide, same as before, but guide shoots the bear dead with a couple 458 solids. When skinning the bear out they find 5 (five!) 30 caliber bullets with the wounds healed over... Then there's the little Alaskan native girl that shot and killed a huge brown with a 22 short as it walked by her hidden spot beside a trail... This can go on forever!
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Post by jfs on Aug 14, 2016 14:06:43 GMT -5
even Mr. Shoemaker admits there was a certain amount of luck involved.........yea doggies.................... took my brown on a tributary from Bristol Bay....wish I could have meet Mr. Shoemaker.... instead I meet an Alaskan Trooper who landed his float plane while I was fishing. Thank God I had all my liscenses... After the Trooper left my guide told me this is where the get most of their information... from the guys beating the bush.... Don`t know why I wrote this.....
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Fowler
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Post by Fowler on Aug 14, 2016 15:39:48 GMT -5
OK here is my 2 cents on this topic since I have a little time here:
A: Mr Shoemaker was indeed a bit complacent, living with anything like he does can do this to a man.
B: He has world more experience with bears that just about anyone else and is a fine shot, 2 skills that allowed him to not get flustered and get the job done with what was at hand. I'm sure he would have wanted a big stopping rifle at that moment but he only had his 9mm. While most of us would have probably been spraying bullets he was making aimed hits repeatedly with what he had and it was loaded with the best ammunition available for the job. Not a perfect scenario but I would bet that Phil with a 9mm was still better off with his skills than 95% of us with whatever gun we would carry by choice, time in the woods counts gentlemen.
C: While a 9mm would never be a top choice for a back country gun I know of lots and lots of people who dont own anything bigger/more powerful than a 9mm and so rather than going fishing in Alaska without a side arm would carry that gun because it whats available, sure beats a sharp stick.
D: I know Phil is a big proponent of carrying the biggest gun you can handle, but I think it is his daughter or wife whose everyday backwoods carry is a 357 loaded heavy with 180gr hardcast bullets. You are going to be best served with a gun that you can get repeated hits with. Lots of guys here have said they would take their big boomers with them loaded to the firewall, I think you absolutely can not count on a single aimed shot stopping the issue at hand. If I was fishing in Alaska my Freedom Arms 475 would not be the gun on my hip, my Smith 45 colt Mountain Gun loaded with a hard cast bullet at moderate velocities would be. Simply put I would be far more likely to put repeated shots on target in a hurry with that gun over the 475 single action (heck could you count on having two hands available to work your single action in a bear attack event to start with). YMMV
E: Attitude and confidence of course play massively into this whole equation, Phil may have been complacent when he grabbed his 9mm but he was also confident he could handle trouble with it and in the end he was correct in this assumption. Heck I know of a lot of DEA and spies have saved their bacon with 38s and 380s because they knew what they were doing with them and had them available when trouble came knocking.
In the end carry WHAT YOU have confidence in, if you can get repeated hits in the proper location with a 9mm then carry it, if you cant do the same with a 44 mag, you would be better served with the 9mm. I know many guys who love their N frame 44 mags that couldn't hit their own ass with them double action under stress. I know if I am being honest with myself that I cant run a 4" N frame fast with a 250gr bullet at 1350fps, but I am sure I can with that bullet at 1000fps so that would be my load instead. I believe a lot of guys would be well served with a 1911 and flat nosed cast bullets in Alaska because they can shoot them far better than any double action revolver, again only hits count folks.
I am also sure every bear event is very different and luck always plays into the equation, I hope to spend some time in Alaska fly fishing one of these days, my choice of side arm will suit me, I hope your suits you well for the right reasons too.
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Post by sixshot on Aug 14, 2016 16:45:08 GMT -5
In part D of Fowler's reply is what I have mentioned many, many times over the years & is what I have admired so much about Phil Shoemaker. He has always said to shoot what you can handle & it always makes sense & I've repeated that many times. His daughter Tia uses a 357 magnum loaded mostly with full metal jacketed loads that she can shoot very well, whats the purpose of having a gun running a 300-400 gr. bullet at 1350 fps with recoil that's out of control & having a large bear breathing down your neck. He's always stressed "hitting" & I've always agreed with him, on this trip he said he wasn't expecting to see any of the bigger bears, I think that's how he worded it. Anyway, that's where I think he put their lives at risk, nothing more, nothing less. But it did work out. Me & my family have taken 25 black bears, all spot & stalk, this might only be one season for Phil Shoemaker, not sure. One thing I do know is that very few people realize how extremely fast a bear is, you have to see it to believe it. I only have experience with one Grizzly & he was very close, I had just stepped out of my tent on the south fork of the Kuskokuim River in Alaska to take a leak. I was in my socks, 10' from my little tent that was staked down on a gravel bar out on the river, my buddy was 20 yds away (I snore!) Looking up above the Alders I just happened to spot 4-5 Dall Rams walking into view. As I wiped my sleepy eyes I looked to my left & a large, mature Grizzly walked out of the brush & started walking down the shore line maybe 25 yds away. Now I was wide awake & my guns were in the tent with the zipper closed! I froze & he got closer with maybe 15 yds of shallow water seperating us. If he saw me he didn't show it, how he could miss 2 tents & one person still puzzles me but he could have closed the gap in about 2 seconds flat. We did kill 4 black bears & 2 Caribou on that 17 day backpack hunt, no guide & no 9mm's. I did have a 44 magnum & a 340 Weatherby.
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Post by 2 Dogs on Aug 14, 2016 17:49:58 GMT -5
Hang on now here a minute Dick. There is not a twitch wrong with your argument. Basically, you are saying bigger is better. No question that is true. I'll bet a pretty good sum that the good Mr. Shoemaker certainly wished for his trusty 458 Win Mag at that moment. Having said that, one cannot subtract the man from the equation. You and I know there are some guys walking around who could defend themselves effectively with whatever they had in hand. More, I can state from personal experience with dangerous felons that there have been times the serrations of my front sight on their vitals are still clearly burned in my minds eye. There are some men that can focus to the point that nothing else exists except that which they require to get the bullet to a particular point. This focus can actually cause all that speed to become slow motion in the minds eye. Now, I have never had a dangerous encounter with a bear. But, on one occasion, I had a really nutty bad guy with a great big knife in one hand and a dead cat in the other. Behind me was a guy who had the non lethal option, the bean bag gun. Dead cat guy starts to press the issue and I never heard the bean bag gun go off despite the fact that my buddy fired it basically over my shoulder and right next to my ear. I did see that bag slowly flying towards Cat guy and hit him so hard it folded him up like a stadium chair and the react guys were all over him in a blink. So, I did not have to shoot. BUT, to this day, I can see my dot where I wanted my bullet to go. And nothing on the planet short of a nuclear explosion could have broken my focus. People were depending on me. Mr. Shoemaker did what he did. Just like Dustin Linebaugh's long shot (what was it, 175 yards with a fixed sight 475?), it ain't bragging if you can do it. Still, just because it is the only available option does not make it the best idea either. That all said, I wonder how many guys are as familiar with Big Bear anatomy as Mr. Shoemaker. Certainly not me!
So the real question is, would Mr. Shoemaker take a 9mm out again while guiding clients in bear country?
I post this with all due respect to Dick Thompson who is a dear friend and brother.
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jwp475
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Post by jwp475 on Aug 14, 2016 17:57:21 GMT -5
Dustin's shot was 186 yards. The fact is penetration that puts holes through vitals kills and Phil's load had enough penetration to do that.
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jwp475
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Post by jwp475 on Aug 14, 2016 18:05:47 GMT -5
This is what Phil posted about "luck" on Accurate Reloading forum 458Win one of us Picture of 458Win posted Aug 11, 2:21 AM Hide Post quote: Originally posted by Bill/Oregon: That took a very cool head and a steady hand for such a favorable outcome with a 9mm. I'd be a little less interested in the fishing after that episode and very interested in a double martini. You been talking with the clients ? The fact is that it was an unfortunate incident and, although I had tested the Buffalo Bore ammo in a number of handgun calibers and was satisfied that it would work, there was a certain amount of luck involved. Even though the bear was only 6 feet away, had the bear come directly for me I am certainl I would had killed it. but the fact that it went for my clients, and was between me and them, made shooting dicy as I certainly did not want to hit them ! I guess in that one situation it was a good thing that the 9mm rounds stayed in the bear. Of course it was a large male that probaly weighed over 900 pounds . Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com
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Post by sixshot on Aug 14, 2016 21:34:40 GMT -5
This is my neighbor & my son's best friend in high school, he was the one mauled by the very average size black bear that was very intent on killing him. Very seldom does a black bear do that but on this occasion she was in it for the finish. His dad, Nolan came running down the mountain knowing his son was being attacked, if you've never heard a bear growl its quite an experience! Anyway, Nolan finally gets there & the sow turns & charges him, Nolan's winded of course but does the only thing he can, he draws his bow & shoots at the charging bear & hits it just above the skull, severing the spine & dropping it in its tracks. He said later that he gets his arrows from Buffalo Bore & he's tested them in "several" different calibers...... and trusted them to fly true. For years neither one of them could go back to that spot. My camp for over 40 years was about 600-700 yds from there & I missed a bear twice once with my trusty Black Widow recurve. I wrote up the story about Jason several years ago on the Ruger Forum so won't do so here but I remember as we talked that he got more nervous as we talked about it, you could see he was at times reliving the attack that he barely survived. The Fish & Game gave him the hide. That's him & one of his son's sitting next to the bear rug. Jason had several severe bites on him, one was in the main artery in his groin, his dad got pressure on it & got in touch with 2 others in the group on the radio & they kept him alive until a Life Flight helicopter could reach them on the mountain, it was really close as he was bleeding out. Dick
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Post by seak89 on Aug 15, 2016 1:43:19 GMT -5
Funny on the Alaska hunting forum the 30-06 always comes out towards the top for best every thing in Alaska hunting rifle. Bill Pinill of P&T hunting killed his first brownie (over 10') with a 30/30.Only bear spray companies and greenies tout spray and bells.Check out fishing the Chilkoot river in Haines Alaska,fisherman a bears everywhere but few have a gun but there is a bear guard at times for the real stupid folk.Most here know darn well if they were hunting bear in the fifties with a handgun they would brag on the 44mag the most powerfull handgun in the world,but today you would call it minimum if you can't handle recoil. This thread is a hoot,I'm 68 thirteen bears and counting and with in 50 yards hundreds. The word suit should not even be a word a sportsman knows
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Post by alukban on Aug 15, 2016 8:43:11 GMT -5
He said later that he gets his arrows from Buffalo Bore & he's tested them in "several" different calibers...... and trusted them to fly true. I see what you did there Mister! When somebody goes beyond accepted theory/practice and DEMONSTRATES that it works, I am inclined to pay a lot of attention. I do completely appreciate that the example was specific to the application of THAT PERSON WITH THAT EQUIPMENT. I think this is just a perfect example of "guns don't kill people, people do" but applied to self defense with animals. It still holds. THE MAN killed the bear. THE MAN prevailed. I bet "458Win" could have prevailed with a sharpened broomstick. I look at the example as a story about A MAN and not a caliber choice. I would still pick a bigger caliber but I appreciate what can be done by a man with the correct experience and mindset.
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Post by magnumwheelman on Aug 15, 2016 10:28:20 GMT -5
... & a little luck on his side...
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jwp475
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Post by jwp475 on Aug 15, 2016 10:32:18 GMT -5
Posted on AR by Phil Shoemaker: Picture of 458Win posted Aug 15, 3:03 AM Hide Post Wayne, I have been hunting brown bears for 38 years, live within a Federal Wildlife refuge, see brown bears on nearly a daily basis and can assure you that it was an all out charge! I am not recommending a 9mm, nor any other handgun calibers. The 357, 44 and larger rounds do give deeper penetration, and would be my choice if I knew I had to face a charge with a handgun, but loaded with proper bullets the 9mm does work. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com
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Post by bulasteve on Aug 15, 2016 11:18:26 GMT -5
A what I call a "cordless drill load" was chosen over a load/cartridge/bore that damages more tissue. Being a mere mortal I'm looking for some kinda compromise. Enough penetration to get to the good stuff. The issue comes when we then go forth in search of tissue damage that requires bore size, meplat and then ever greater amounts of bullet weight and velo needed, that then saddles us with recoil. We all have to recognize our threats, gauge our skill levels, and choose accordingly. Phil and his clients can enjoy a cold one today. The bear ?
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