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Post by whitworth on Aug 11, 2016 5:33:49 GMT -5
You would think a man with that much experience would have been carrying something alittle bigger. He normally carries a Mountain Gun in .44 Mag. I know that he thoroughly tested that ammo before deciding to carry it, and evidently it works as advertised. Personally I want to carry something a bit (a whole bit) bigger.
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Post by BigBore44 on Aug 11, 2016 6:25:46 GMT -5
Very few snipers use a 9mm & really I hate to say anything bad about a guy like Phil because he usually packs something bigger but taking clients fishing in big bear country & taking that kind of a risk is really rolling the dice. Like I said, some of the lower 48 fishermen are going to take 9mm's up there with "good" ammo & get sent home in a small flat rate box! Dick Exactly right Dick. Monkey see monkey do! Not this monkey, I'd be carrying my Marlin 4570 or handgun of 44 mag Plus ! BigBore44
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Post by dougader on Aug 11, 2016 8:53:11 GMT -5
I've been fishing up in Alaska a few times, and it's surprising to me that even the locals have some "ideas" about bear stoppers. First time up I was somewhat relieved to see my buddy packing a Desert Eagle 44 mag, until I saw the hollowpoint ammo he had in it.
At least Phil knew his ammo, the limitations, characteristics, etc., and was clearly very cool "under fire" from this charging Grizz. I figure my 480 won't do as well if I shoot wild, in a rush, without taking good aim. A miss is a miss, whether it's some 9mm super blaster/penetrator or 475 Linebaugh rocket-recoiling rounds.
Seems to me that 44 mag should always be there, with the 9mm in backup position for two-legged varmints.
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Post by contender on Aug 11, 2016 9:01:00 GMT -5
Phil had a lapse in good judgement. We've all done it. He chose to carry a less than optimal gun for the potential issues that could arise. He got complacent. I doubt that will happen again. He got lucky & nobody got hurt. Yes, he was able to deliver lethal hits with a less then optimal caliber. Good hits are good hits, and the kind of thing we preach often. But even he will admit he was wrong in his choice of carrying the 9mm over a bigger caliber. It's the same mentality we hear all too often; "I've done this a thousand times, it won't happen to me." Luckily, they got an education without people getting hurt. I also wondered why I didn't see any bear spray mentioned.
Nope, 9mm & others are NOT optimal calibers,,, no matter the ammo.
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Post by bulasteve on Aug 11, 2016 9:44:14 GMT -5
A 9mm anything, will not impress a big bear with energy levels,"shocking power". It would be about drilling holes. My favorite 9mm load for that by Fiochii. It's a bit above our specs, but within EU and NATO. It has a small flat meplat that pierces well. Luck..
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Post by Rimfire69 on Aug 11, 2016 10:03:35 GMT -5
I have carried the wrong gun in the wrong place before, and if you carry a gun anywhere that will happen sooner or later. Thumbs up to Phil for making the best of a bad situation.
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Post by sixshot on Aug 11, 2016 12:08:44 GMT -5
Two things really saved the day here. First, Phil wasn't the one being attacked so he was shooting the bear from the side instead of head on, that's a real key! Second, he is a very experienced guide & a fine shot so I think he was a little more calm than some one right off of Wall Street but I still can't believe he got so careless. I hope he doesn't try & make this into a positive for BB ammo or the 9mm round as a bear slayer. He should be talking about how he made a bad mistake & him & his 2 clients lived to tell about it.
Dick
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Post by jfs on Aug 11, 2016 14:10:06 GMT -5
Phil Shoemaker has been around a long time but he got real lucky on this one. He's one of the most respected guides in all of Alaska but if he was guiding clients I'd say he should probably receive a fine of some sort because that's stupid if you're doing it on your own but if you're risking other peoples lives that's a whole nother ball game. Just my opinion but killing that bear with a 9mm will get someone else killed on down the road. Very few bears are vegetarians..... if there's fish there are bears, take a gun that will protect you & your clients. Dick You hit the nail on the head Dick.... taking a client in bear country with a 9mm............. Kinda reckless on his part......pretty lucky otherwise......while hunting I once listened as a mom brown bear crunched a salmon for her cub as the sound of breaking bones echoed over the stream and my first thought was of my neck in her jaws........ When I bid for a FA`s 500WE on Gunbroker I found out from the seller that the other bidder was an Alaskan bush pilot. I sure he was not trying to buy the 500 for plinking.....
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Post by dougader on Aug 11, 2016 22:58:30 GMT -5
A 35 caliber would be more acceptable if the cartridge read more like "358 Norma Mag."
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f3
.30 Stingray
Posts: 412
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Post by f3 on Aug 11, 2016 23:22:52 GMT -5
Very few snipers use a 9mm & really I hate to say anything bad about a guy like Phil because he usually packs something bigger but taking clients fishing in big bear country & taking that kind of a risk is really rolling the dice. Like I said, some of the lower 48 fishermen are going to take 9mm's up there with "good" ammo & get sent home in a small flat rate box! Dick My point was this situation didn't end terribly because this man was not of average ability. Complacency or arrogance was the culprit. The link Whitworth included to the article is already showing peoples ignorance in their comments. Dick, don't recall ever coming across a US military sniper with the 9 as a primary weapon.LOL. Seen quite a few with one as a side arm .
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f3
.30 Stingray
Posts: 412
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Post by f3 on Aug 11, 2016 23:25:19 GMT -5
Lots of comments about the nine is more powerful than people give it credit for.
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Post by sixshot on Aug 12, 2016 0:14:48 GMT -5
f3, I know what you meant, just can't get over him doing what he did with all the experience he has. The only sniper I ever met, the one I told you that I hosted said he always carried a Colt Commander & that's one of the 2 guns we gave him when I hosted him on a hunt a few years back. I'm sure you seen a lot more of them than I did, but that's what he was carrying when he got blew up.
Dick
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Post by jimtx on Aug 12, 2016 3:24:40 GMT -5
I have read Brian P. articles in handloader with him and Phil, he usually had a guide gun or 375H&H if I remember. I use 9mm stickly for fun and paper not even 2 legged scum bags , 2 many perps have been shot with 9's and ran off or kept coming but still lived. That's my opinion, I would never carry one for bear but that's my IMO. PS Brian was not carrying a 9mm in his shoulder rigs . If I took a rifle for hunting or defense would be my 350 rem mag, many gun writes and guides have said its almost perfect bear gun in the brush. Les Bowman famous guide ad sometimes writer wrote when it cam out he took the long discontinued rem corelokt 250 apart and handloaded it and want to take a Kodiak at what he said was max for m600 about 150 yds. He came across a large bruin in a dry creek bed he estimated the distance at 150yds apprx The shot broke both shoulder and exited , the bear never moved just bit the log in front of it and died, he said I will never fear a sow with cubs or any bear with a 350 rem mag in hand.
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jwp475
.375 Atomic
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Post by jwp475 on Aug 12, 2016 9:55:33 GMT -5
Let's break this down factually. 1-Phil is very experienced with large Alaskan bears and a guide of high repute. 2- Anyone that has read much of Phill's articles knows that he has always advocated handguns they recoil little for rapid shooting trying for a central nervous system hit. 3-Phil carefully tested the ammo and determined it provided adequate penetration. 4- Despite the fact that the bear got as close as a couple of feet of the client Phil kept the bear from getting to the client with his weapon. 5- Phil not only protected himself and his client from harm, but also killed the bear to prevent harm to others from a wounded bear.
Lucky? Luck always plays a part no matter the armament. Phil was prepaired and proficient. The results would not have been any better if Phil had used a 500 Nitro Express
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Post by bulasteve on Aug 12, 2016 11:47:33 GMT -5
I clicked "like" for ya JWP475. I'll add that I'm NOT Phil, didn't sleep at Holiday Inn Express, and the 9mm is not the way to bet your/my life, when playing in big furry bear territory. Phil, and his clients should be investing heavily in lottery tickets right now.
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