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Post by bagdadjoe on Aug 12, 2016 13:26:42 GMT -5
I killed a 700 lb steer with a .22
But...
I won't be carrying a 9 anywhere except to the grocery....until it gets cool enough to hide something bigger.
That makes me cringe to think about it.
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Post by sixshot on Aug 13, 2016 3:24:58 GMT -5
John, over the years you & I have agreed on almost everything but on this one we're split a little bit on #3. He did kill the bear but I think he just got careless & then very, very lucky because he was not the one being attacked. Again, a 9mm against any bear is not a rational choice for anyone, much less someone of Phil's knowledge & experience, it just doesn't add up. Where did he test the ammo? I've told the story before but maybe not here on the Single Actions Forum about my neighbor who is one of my son's best friends. He was attacked by a smallish black bear just a few miles from town several years ago & she mauled him almost to death & she did it in a hurry. His dad killed the 150 lb. sow with his bow as she whirled & charged him, yes he actually hit a charging bear with an arrow, one in a million shot.....much like killing a Grizzly or Brown with a 9mm. The little black bear was intent on killing Jason & almost did. This story made every newspaper in the country & they were both on national TV. Jason has the bear mounted in his home. The Fish & Game dept. had to destroy the 2 cubs she was protecting. A Life Flight helicopter was the only thing that kept Jason from bleeding to death & he has terrible scars all over his body. A Guide does not defend his clients with a 9mm in big bear country, period!
Dick
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Post by rjm52 on Aug 13, 2016 7:27:39 GMT -5
Have read several of the writeups on this incident and can only 101% agree with Dick.
Bob
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jwp475
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,084
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Post by jwp475 on Aug 13, 2016 9:27:16 GMT -5
John, over the years you & I have agreed on almost everything but on this one we're split a little bit on #3. He did kill the bear but I think he just got careless & then very, very lucky because he was not the one being attacked. Again, a 9mm against any bear is not a rational choice for anyone, much less someone of Phil's knowledge & experience, it just doesn't add up. Where did he test the ammo? Dick The facts do not support your position of calling Phill careless, Phil tested the ammo and concluded correctly that it produced enough penetration. As to how he tested his ammo, ask Phil he posted this account a couple of weeks before the article came out on 24 hour campfire, you are a member there as well. Phil has more experience with these bears than all of us put together. I have argued with Phil for years that an attacking bear can be stopped with a big bore revolver by body shots. I've done so in 1988. Phil believed that only a central nervous system hit was the only way. Because a head shot would be extremely difficult with a fast moving bear Phil believed that s light kick handgun with enough penetration that allowed fast accurate shots was the way to go. I am not surprised that the 9mm kept the bear off of them because in my limited experience grizzly bears react to getting shot and when they are getting hurt most lose interest fast because they know that they cannot survive hurt in the wild. What I am surprised at is that the bear died as fast as he did with those narrow wound channels. Phil wisely did not go with a handgun that he was not comfortable with
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Post by bulasteve on Aug 13, 2016 10:12:22 GMT -5
Ummm..many if not most of the debates, discussions here, boil down to whats the proper this or that for a chosen task. Picking the right gear. I did it when I backpacked and climbed. When I nab a fly rod outta the closet to chase steelhead, the 6 to 8wt rods get the nod, not the 3wt.. When a bear runs it's head hobby horses up and down thru quite an arc, a horrible target to bet your or someone elses life on. If Phil had been next to his companions, a head on thing.... I'm glad they all came home OK..
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Post by magnumwheelman on Aug 13, 2016 11:27:42 GMT -5
You guys have much more experience than I on this subject... but I built a custom Dan Wesson 44 magnum snubbie, specifically for hiking in Colorado... this before Ruger came out with their fine Alaskan revolver... my Dan Wesson was blued, or I never would have had the need to try an Alaskan... I've now put a 6 inch barrel on the blued 44, and own both a 454, and a 480 Alaskan, for my mountain hiking... both are upgraded with fiber optic sights and I shoot them well... IMO a better choice than a 9 mm... but I'm not a guide, and I'm not going to bet that I could hit the CNS with a couple shots at a charging bear...I'm going to be hoping for some bone crushing from my bullets,should breaking a hip be needed if that is the best target assessed at the time I pulled the trigger
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Post by sixshot on Aug 13, 2016 14:22:35 GMT -5
Well most of us will probably stick to our "guns" on our opinion on this, the good part is it worked out & no one was killed but in a heart beat it could have been very bad & on a couple of other forums I noticed last night he's been hammered on pretty hard. I still think he's out of the very best out there & I've said so for a very long time. I just think this time he pulled a very big rabbit out of a very small hat. For those of you who think an injured grizzly flees after being hurt hopefully you might have a copy of Larry Kelley & JD Jones book about hunting big game with handguns. I have one but don't have it in hand so I'm not telling this word for word but here goes. Larry & his guide were in a remote Alaskan cabin hunting moose or sheep, maybe bear, I can't remember, anyway one of them looks out the cabin door & spots a somewhat average size grizzly ambling towards the cabin. As they continue to watch they realize the bear is coming right at them! They scramble for their guns, Larry grabs a big bore revolver, maybe a 44 or 454, again I haven't read the book for some time. His guide grabs a big caliber rifle & at pretty close range they start shooting the bear. This is happening very fast but not as fast as the 9mm shootout. Now the bear is inside the cabin & I think one or both of the shooters has reloaded & is back in the fight. Pretty soon the bear is dead & has something like 11 bullet holes in it & 2 very shaken hunters. I'm guessing the guide is "experienced" & I know Larry Kelley is one of the most experienced big game handgun hunters in the world. My recall here might be off just a bit & I'm sure others will correct my errors but for the most part it's correct & these guys had much more time to shoot & there were 2 of them & this bear didn't turn & run when hurt. Kind of like a basketball coach that's won 3 national championships but he's having a bad game & decides to throw a metal chair out onto the floor. Do the referees admire him for sticking up for his team or do they throw his butt out of the game, we all know the answer, he made a bad choice. I'll leave it at that.
Dick
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jwp475
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Posts: 1,084
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Post by jwp475 on Aug 13, 2016 14:34:56 GMT -5
Dick I didn't say every grizzly I said most and I am familar with the Larry Kelly incident. Larry had a 44 mag with hollow points that did not penetrate well enough the bear came inside the cabin with them
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Post by 2 Dogs on Aug 13, 2016 14:52:48 GMT -5
I guess it's a good thing Shoemaker didn't stop that Grizz with a .380!!!
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Post by 500fksjr on Aug 13, 2016 15:30:49 GMT -5
IT is easy to make comments !!! until it is you were'in the shoes....
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Post by dougader on Aug 13, 2016 16:19:21 GMT -5
As I recall the Alaskan incident, there were 2 separate events. Larry shot a grizz out hunting and was discouraged when the 44 mag didn't put the bear down. This was with 240 grain jhp ammo I believe.
The next day, or so, is when a bigger Brown decided he was coming in the door of the cabin. Larry was faster to grab his 44 than the other(s) were with their rifles. He practically dropped the bear in it's tracks with solid cast bullets. Two shots, I think?
Anyway, the point was bring enough gun and load it with the right bullet for the job at hand.
Phil may have picked the right ammo, but he admittedly brought the wrong gun.
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Post by jfs on Aug 13, 2016 18:15:37 GMT -5
Mr. Shoemaker is lucky his clients were not seriously hunt. The women stated that she could smell the bears breath. As I look at the claws of the small brown bear I took I know that one swipe of that bears paw would have taken the face off her head. There are very few people that could have stopped a "charging brown bear" with a 9mm but he is one of them. However, being such a well known Alaskan bear guide some people will say "whats good enough for Phil Shoemaker is good enough for me"... There have been millions of words exchanged on what handgun to carry for "brown" bear protection but I cannot remember seeing 9mm in there...
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Post by whitworth on Aug 13, 2016 18:22:45 GMT -5
Actually, JWP is one of the few people I know who has had to kill a grizzly with a handgun that was invading his space. He is a voice of reason in this debate, however I am not discounting the experiences and opinions of others in this debate. That said, I like the margin of error offered by big revolvers and my choice certainly wouldn't be a 9mm. However, Phil has more experience than most, and he loaded that minuscule 9mm about as well as is possible. On this day, on this bear, at this moment, in Phil's hands, it obviously proved adequate in no uncertain terms. The bottom line is that his clients are above ground and uninjured. It was a good and fortuitous day.
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Post by jfs on Aug 13, 2016 18:25:01 GMT -5
On a different forum Mr. Shoemaker gave one of the members a hard time because he said you could not stop a charging bear with a body shot from a handgun.. Looks like he proved himself wrong.... I think this topic will be talked about for the next 100 years and rank up there with the "cast vs jacketed bullet" discussion as well it should because this one can get people hurt....... "
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Post by whitworth on Aug 13, 2016 18:29:50 GMT -5
On a different forum Mr. Shoemaker gave one of the members a hard time because he said you could not stop a charging bear with a body shot from a handgun.. Looks like he proved himself wrong.... I think this topic will be talked about for the next 100 years and rank up there with the "cast vs jacketed bullet" discussion as well it should because this one can get people hurt....... " You're right. We've gone rounds with Phil in the past over this issue. He was wrong.
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