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Post by rjm52 on Aug 13, 2016 18:33:29 GMT -5
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Post by Encore64 on Aug 13, 2016 18:46:41 GMT -5
I'd originally thought to stay out of this, but...
A 9mm stopping a bear attack is like Jesus feeding 5000 with 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish. It worked because they were blessed.
That being my belief, I agree with Max. I'd have my BFR in 475 Linebaugh or 500 JRH. Maybe both...
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jwp475
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Post by jwp475 on Aug 13, 2016 18:55:42 GMT -5
On a different forum Mr. Shoemaker gave one of the members a hard time because he said you could not stop a charging bear with a body shot from a handgun.. Looks like he proved himself wrong.... I think this topic will be talked about for the next 100 years and rank up there with the "cast vs jacketed bullet" discussion as well it should because this one can get people hurt....... " You're right. We've gone rounds with Phil in the past over this issue. He was wrong. Phil has certainly given me a hard time, because I stated that a big bore revolver would stop one with a body shot and Phil didn't think so. People keep posting that Phil chose the wrong handgun, but the results state other wise. Phil certainly did not choose what I would choose. I would not go with anything less than a 45 colt with 325 grain flat point or larger weight, or most likely one of my 475's or 500. But I am not Phil. |
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jwp475
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Post by jwp475 on Aug 13, 2016 19:01:34 GMT -5
When I was living in Alaska a guy got mauled by a big bear on the kenia, he finally got a chance to shoot the bear in the mouth with a Ruger 357 Blackhawk. The bear stopped the attack turned and walked away, two weeks later the fish and game troopers still had not located the bear.
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Post by sixshot on Aug 13, 2016 19:20:56 GMT -5
My key point here all along is that he didn't have to take a front on shot at a charging bear, that's all. I still hold him in the highest regard & we've stayed pretty civil all the way through although not many have changed their minds & that's no surprise. It has been interesting to see all the different replies, many from people who probably have never been close to a bear & some who have quite a bit of bear experience, all good stuff.
Dick
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paulg
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Post by paulg on Aug 13, 2016 20:04:08 GMT -5
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Post by rjm52 on Aug 13, 2016 20:19:35 GMT -5
I am a little confused exactly where/when he put his first round...
Incident occurred on 7-21-16
From his post on the Campfire 7-23-16:
"Two days ago I was guiding a married couple and we bumped into a bear at close range on our way to the fishing stream. We yelled and it ran but circled around and then charged. The couple were 10 or 12 feet behind me and the bear came out of the brush so close it was within 3 feet of my clients before I could shoot. They both intentionally fell to the ground just before I shot the bear behind the shoulder. It immediately spun and I continued shooting, all the while keeping the position of my clients in perspective. After six quick hits the bear turned and ran 20 yards and died."
From BuffaloBore sent to them 7-23-16:
"The man had enough sense to grab his wife and fall backwards into the tall grass. The bear seemed to loose track of them, even though it was less than 3 feet away from them and it was highly agitated ! It then swung toward me, I was 6 or 8 feet away, and I fired the first shot into the area between the head and shoulder. It growled and started wildly thrashing around, still basically on the feet of my clients. My next shot hit it in the shoulder and it began twisting and biting at the hits and I continued firing as fast as I could see vitals. Five shots later it turned into the brush and I hit it again and it twisted and fell 20 feet from us !"
From American Hunter:
"My first shot was at its neck, and then it began growling and spinning toward the impact. I wanted to hit the head but the bear was moving so fast I simply began shooting each time I could hit a vital area. I hit it six times before it turned to run off, and my seventh shot was into its pelvis area as it ran. When it dropped within 6 feet of the last shot, I checked my pistol and found I had only a single round left in the chamber so decided against walking in and finishing it."
They jumped a sleeping bear who ran off but returned..
They could hear the bear coming and it appeared between Phil and the clients, about 2-3' from the clients and 6-7' from Phil.
The husband grabbed his wife and threw her down into the tall grass. The bear seemed to have seen them but then lost them. The bear didn't seem to see Phil.
Phil was ready and as soon as soon he had a clear shot unloaded on the bear. First round behind the shoulder or in the neck, five more shots into the "vitals" of the spinning bear and as the bear ran to leave one into the pelvic area which dropped the bear shortly after the hit.
Nowhere do I see that the bear charged Phil other than the initial getting in between he and his clients. And at a distance of 6-8' if the bear had seen him after looking for his clients and charged there would have been no possibility of a neck or behind the shoulder shot...it would have been an eyesocket shot...
...and I don't know about everyone here, but I pay a guide to a) guide me to game b) get me back home in one piece.
"we were going to a small stream I had fished before, which had numerous large male brown bears"
...and he brings an 8 shot 9mm because...
"I decided to take my Smith & Wesson 3953 DAO 9mm, rather than the S&W 629 .44 Mag. Mountain Gun I have carried for the past 25 years, as the larger boars are usually less of a problem than sows with cubs."
...without an extra magazine....
"I checked my pistol and found I had only a single round left in the chamber so decided against walking in and finishing it."
This is why I agreed with Dick 101%. If this incident had not ended well he would have been facing a negligent death civil suit because when you are a fishing guide in an area with LARGE MALE BROWN BEARS you're paid t carry a .458 not a flyrod and a 9mm.
Bob
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Post by lscg on Aug 13, 2016 20:41:20 GMT -5
I've always liked reading Phil's stories and I respect him a lot. if anyone knows about big bears it's him. that being said, carrying a 9mm for bear protection is like going into combat armed with a butter knife. sure it can kill but it's not the best tool for the job.
somebody with Phil's experience should know that even if your the best, things can and do go wrong. when other's lives are in your hands you owe it to them to be over prepared.
thank the Good Lord it ended well.
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Post by jimtx on Aug 14, 2016 0:17:54 GMT -5
Using the right bullet/load is always the most important factor in handgun hunting or back up defense. But a 9mm to me IMO is not even a consideration against any kind of bear or other large dangerous game! I shoot paper with one only, not even a defense carry round IMO, have seen it fail to many times with defense ammo. But again this is my opinion, anyone can say what they like opinions are like assholes every bodies got one, bottom line for me personally if my family or my own life could be at risk I carry/use loads that have a high probability of success. One shot - one kill!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PS-The next time I go to bear country I'll just carry a mac-10 that's the preffered choice for the 21 century fish/game guides.  |
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Post by seak89 on Aug 14, 2016 1:25:16 GMT -5
I'm thinking at least 75% of folks fishing up here don't have a gun. The last three DLP's with pistol up here were with 45acp,9mm and 10mm. Not long ago the 357mag was for sure good medicine on bears and that was 158gr factory ammo. I know most young fishing guides are summer hire and never killed a bear and would be hard pressed to shoot nice bear killing groups. Heck on July 2nd I got out of my worst bear scare with a NAA black widow 22mag. Yep lucks and the Gods in my case for sure and the 44 has not been nor will ever be left behind again no matter how short the walk
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Post by bulasteve on Aug 14, 2016 8:36:42 GMT -5
I've had enough run ins with bears to have a respect for them as a threat to me. All of my incidents with bears would fit in a month..so I cannot come close to Phil Shoemakers experience. It's also likely he is a better shot than I ,so will walk away from this discussion. Did get a few 44's dirty yesterday out back here, while they were down for cleaning I dropped the Nano stoked with 147gr Black Talons in my Bulldog holster for the rest of the day ! Might be a good time to sell it ! Hmmnnn..if I glue a patch of velcro onto its left side, another to front of waders..no holster needed at all !
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Post by jfs on Aug 14, 2016 12:05:26 GMT -5
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Post by jfs on Aug 14, 2016 12:10:16 GMT -5
This is why I agreed with Dick 101%. If this incident had not ended well he would have been facing a negligent death civil suit because when you are a fishing guide in an area with LARGE MALE BROWN BEARS you're paid t carry a .458 not a flyrod and a 9mm.
Bob
Amen.................................
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jwp475
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Post by jwp475 on Aug 14, 2016 12:37:14 GMT -5
This is why I agreed with Dick 101%. If this incident had not ended well he would have been facing a negligent death civil suit because when you are a fishing guide in an area with LARGE MALE BROWN BEARS you're paid t carry a .458 not a flyrod and a 9mm. Bob Amen................................. Years back Phil was useing his 505 Gibbs as his backup rifle. The client shot and wounded a bear, Phil went into the pucker brush with the 505 and shot the best 5 times. Phil could not I stand why he had to shoot so many times until he skinned the bear and found that the 525 grain bullets over expanded and did not reach the vitals. No way would he be liable for negligent death. |
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Post by seak89 on Aug 14, 2016 13:06:37 GMT -5
And if he had a 458 and could not get a shot off for fear of hitting clients,what then?If he has 458 and can't shoot bear till it mauls first client and moves towards second,what then? If the guide has 458 plus 500S&W but is mauled first then clients mauled,what then.
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