Paden
.375 Atomic
Lower Goldstream Creek
Posts: 1,132
|
Post by Paden on Oct 22, 2016 16:21:33 GMT -5
Paden I agree. I've been inside'm plenty of times just never really did a "heavy polish" if you will. Usually just take off tool marks etc., but I wanted this Bisley Flattop to be better because I like it A lot and I hate CREEEEEEEEP!!! BigBore44 BB, my statement was more for the general audience at large. Pretty much anybody otter be able to clean up a NMB trigger. Ain't nothin' to be skeerd of!
|
|
Sarge
.30 Stingray
Posts: 353
|
Post by Sarge on Oct 26, 2016 7:19:04 GMT -5
Mr. 2 Dogs.... good question, about to receive a lousy answer. I have attempted to measure the height of the hammer dog, by extending the tail of a caliper from dog to notch. My reading are inconsistent, therefore useless. I proceed by feel, and never sacrifice REGAIN for imaginary perfection. (For those just dropping by, REGAIN is a hook quality in the angles interfacing hammer and trigger.)Very good thread. Been doing my own trigger jobs for decades and via trial and error, soon arrived at the methods depicted in the opening page of this thread. I'm also glad to see I'm not the only one who's had difficulty getting consistent readings on Ruger NM hammer notches.
|
|
|
Post by 2 Dogs on Oct 26, 2016 21:13:10 GMT -5
Mr. 2 Dogs.... good question, about to receive a lousy answer. I have attempted to measure the height of the hammer dog, by extending the tail of a caliper from dog to notch. My reading are inconsistent, therefore useless. I proceed by feel, and never sacrifice REGAIN for imaginary perfection. (For those just dropping by, REGAIN is a hook quality in the angles interfacing hammer and trigger.) My final test involves minimum 25 squeezes. Employing the most delicate accumulation of pressure, the trigger sweeps rearward at the moment of hammer fall. That tests correct engagement. A fixture might limit stock removal, but I don't have one. Therefore, I don't know whether distance between hammer pivot and full cock notch might vary from hammer to hammer. Ruger SA trigger work----two ways:1) dead clean break. Light for silhouette. Heavier for hunting. This letoff is found on my Silhouette Super and .357 Maximum, etc. 2) smooth take-up. Whether set for a light or heavier letoff, there is a large contact patch (engagement patch). Which makes for a durable fast draw engagement. The Ruger 03 sports this arrangement. Two advantages of Ruger New Model hammer and trigger:Hammer----a flute at the back of the notch facilitates cleaning underside of dog. Trigger----thick sear tip much stronger than thin Peacemaker sear. Note for old model (Peacemaker-type)----the old model hammer notch has a square corner. Very few tools qualify to touch it. Most tools which claim to be square produce a radiussed corner at the bottom of the notch, which a sharp trigger sear must rub. As you well know, the resulting sensation will make you reach for a straight jacket. To clean a square notch, I use a ceramic stone----made, I believe by Coors----which has a sharp square angle. It has no other job. A jig which measures both pin-to-notch, followed by pin-to-dog, should allow for a consistent dog-height and letoff. David Bradshaw Mr. Bradshaw, since we have first discussed this subject, I have done a number of trigger jobs myself. I have had the benefit of watching one of the very best in the world. I have come to the conclusion that there is no quick way to accomplish a good trigger job on the New Model. You have to "sneak" up on it. Besides your very accurate description and depiction of the modifications of the New Model Hammer, there is also some work to be done on the trigger as well. I have examined several and they vary a bit and need to be uniformed. Oh, if any of you guys need standard hammers and triggers I have a bunch of take off's you can practice on. PM me and let me know.
|
|
Sarge
.30 Stingray
Posts: 353
|
Post by Sarge on Oct 26, 2016 23:39:08 GMT -5
Thanks for for the heads-up Fermin, I may be in the market for another one soon.
And yes, every one I've worked over has been a little different in how much the hammer notch needed adjusted.
|
|
|
Post by bradshaw on Oct 27, 2016 8:18:09 GMT -5
Fermin.... correct you are, each trigger job requires a touch, and each is different. A minor tool mark like a fingerprint changes everything. My aim has been to promote respect for engagement of trigger & hammer. Some advocate a slight bevel on the sear tip of the trigger----either to reduce the sensation of creep, or to bypass a tool mark at the corner of the hammer notch. While this reduces the drag of the sear, it causes a slight kick (forward motion) of the trigger as the bevel clears the full cock dog. A person who applies gross motor skill to pull the trigger won't notice this defect; the marksman who applies fine motor skill notices.
It takes a sharp cornered stone to dress the notch and support shelf of the hammer dog. I rely on white ceramic, as available from Spyderco. Natural stones don't have clean corners. These stones in my kit have no other job in the world. An imperfect corner on the stone leaves a radius in the corner of the notch. This is a no-no.
The sear tip (trigger) wants a sharp corner. It is not 90-degrees. The rear face of the sear----not the top----may be dressed to remove a dull or beveled corner on the sear. The top of the sear may be polished with the white stone, which barely removes metal. The angle must not be changed. As you know, to reduce the length of the sear----trigger pivot to sear tip----causes play on cocking, and, at the same time retards carry-up (timing).
Trigger work requires patience and skill, assembling and disassembling to test progress with dry fire. A gently-squeezed trigger sweeps rearward at hammer fall. If it kicks it is wrong. David Bradshaw
|
|
|
Post by BigBore44 on Oct 27, 2016 8:24:35 GMT -5
Mr. Bradshaw The "Kick" you always mention on Fugitive triggers. How hard or far will this kick be? Is Any forward movement considered an Fugitive trigger???
I noticed a forward kick on my single seven from the factory...
Thank you Ray
|
|
|
Post by bradshaw on Oct 27, 2016 9:34:50 GMT -5
Mr. Bradshaw The "Kick" you always mention on Fugitive triggers. How hard or far will this kick be? Is Any forward movement considered an Fugitive trigger??? I noticed a forward kick on my single seven from the factory... Thank you Ray *** Ray.... 1) Yes, any amount of kick (forward motion) of the trigger at hammer fall indicates fugitive single action engagement. An angle which cannot support full cock will continue to worsen with use. The rule applies also to the single action on a DA revolver. 2) Having squeezed a few factory triggers, and never experienced the trigger kicking at hammer fall, I would investigate. Try this * GENTLY squeeze trigger with tip of your finger, a gradual accumulation of pressure. At hammer fall, the trigger should continue rearward. If it kicks...* Disconnect one leg of trigger spring and repeat gentle squeeze. If the trigger kicks, disassemble and look at SEAR TIP----it should be flat. The corner should be sharp. The top should not be unduly polished or wavy, or display convexity. Any aberrant features should be dressed. Don't be afraid to repeat the disassemble/reassemble caper. If you don't want to tackle the job, call Ruger Customer Service. David Bradshaw
|
|
|
Post by rugerdude on Nov 12, 2016 21:22:45 GMT -5
Lucked up and found this thread. Excellent information! I have done a little trigger work over the years, but the info herein definitely has me itching to take a look at my Bisley. The trigger pull isn't bad, but it is a little gritty and this gives me a good idea of where to address a little TLC.
|
|
|
Post by alukban on Dec 10, 2016 14:18:45 GMT -5
I luvs this friggin thread
|
|
|
Post by oddshooter on Dec 18, 2016 14:18:55 GMT -5
Mr. Bradshaw is truly a treasure. His experience at Ruger gives him unique perspectives on history. And certainly not least for me is his writing skills. He is a wordsmith as well as a gunsmith. I just saw several photos of him in the early days of the silhouette shooting society and it was wonderful to put a face to his writings. He was standing beside Sig Himmelman of United Sporting Arms fame, another world-class engineer.
Thank you, David, for all your contributions. You have led quite a life.
Oddshooter
|
|
JDG
.240 Incinerator
Posts: 70
|
Post by JDG on Oct 6, 2018 17:04:11 GMT -5
Mr. 2 Dogs.... good question, about to receive a lousy answer. I have attempted to measure the height of the hammer dog, by extending the tail of a caliper from dog to notch. My reading are inconsistent, therefore useless. I proceed by feel, and never sacrifice REGAIN for imaginary perfection. (For those just dropping by, REGAIN is a hook quality in the angles interfacing hammer and trigger.) ... A jig which measures both pin-to-notch, followed by pin-to-dog, should allow for a consistent dog-height and letoff. David Bradshaw Got it. Thanks. I agree a caliper would be difficult to use to measure the hieght of the dog. But it should be possible to make a gauge so that one can cut it to the gauge depth and go to the stone. I will discuss such a gauge with Ray here pretty soon. Hope you guys don't mind me resurrecting an old thread. Speaking of measuring the hammer, couldn't one lay a feeler gauge along the surface of the hammer below the dog? Thus measuring the engagement surface of the hammer to the sear (trigger in this case). Even though there may be slight dimensional differences to each hammer, the measurement should still be accurate considering its more of a measurement of sear engagement than hammer dog height. Its a common method in the 1911 world to measure hammer/sear engagement. If you guys have some feeler gauges handy, I'd be interested in your measurements of the engagement surface on rugers with 1-3 pound pulls.
|
|
|
Post by bradshaw on Oct 7, 2018 7:50:55 GMT -5
JDG..... if you can get anywhere by measuring the shelf (height of HAMMER DOG over the bottom radius of the hammer, go for it. Not sure you’ll do any better than the tail of a dial or vernier caliper. The caliper is a handy measuring instrument, which convenience inspires use where results are inconsistent. For instance, I can’t reliably measure the CLICK VALUE of iron sights with a caliper. Whereas, a vise and an INDICATOR DIAL facilitate measurement of rear sight clicks.
To me it comes down to feel. Experience and and a good touch, aided by magnification, are my friend. Perhaps my biggest friend is SOUND DESIGN of hammer & trigger, with excellent HEAT TREATMENT of the parts. Ruger hammer & triggers are top chromoly or stainless, THROUGH HARDENED. (Unlike the S&W drop-forged carbon steel hammer & trigger, which have real case carburizing, surface hardness only a few thousandths in depth, which disappears when stoned, leaving soft, FUGITIVE TRIGGER PULL.)
No hammer & trigger has in my experience exceeded long life of Ruger on the firing line. Single action LETOFF of drop forged Smith & Wesson hammer & trigger equals Ruger in durability----providing no one has violated the case hardening. Case hardening has its place----to prevent wear and galling. When Smith & Wesson launched the stainless handgun craze, it drop forged hammers & triggers from stainless steel. For whatever reason, the parts did not hold up. The solution fell back on S&W’s tried and true drop forged carbon steel----case hardened. The parts were then FLASH CHROMED to look light stainless. It works.
Sturm, Ruger comes along, makes parts via the lost wax (investment cast) process, heat treats.... BAM!----tough, through-hardened, long lasting. David Bradshaw
|
|
wgg
.30 Stingray
Posts: 158
|
Post by wgg on Nov 17, 2018 7:56:26 GMT -5
I have put Wolff hammer springs in my Ruger SA, if I remember rated 26 pounds. Will this damage my Ruger in the long run?
|
|
|
Post by bradshaw on Nov 17, 2018 11:36:22 GMT -5
I have put Wolff hammer springs in my Ruger SA, if I remember rated 26 pounds. Will this damage my Ruger in the long run? ***** Wolff lists 23 lb. mainspring as standard. There should be no need to go heavier for Blackhawk/ SBH. I don’t want lighter. The Blackhawk .357 Maximum uses the heavier Old Army cap & ball mainspring to prevent PRIMER BLANKING at high pressure. At discharge, the firing pin supports the primer against extrusion into the firing pin hole (blanking). Revolver mainspring notes* Light may ignite some primers but not all. * Light may promote blanking. * A light mainspring may be strong enough to ignite primer, yet too weak to prevent blanking. * A fatigued spring continues to weaken----it never gets stronger. * A heavy mainspring may speed hammer fall, but the effect remains relative to the hammer’s height, weight, and the arc of HAMMER FALL. During development of the .357 Maximum, I thought about possible hammering effect of the heavy Old Army mainspring. May thousands of dry fires, mixed with many thousands of live fires, on a number of revolvers, produced no visible effect. Ruger heat treatments are superb. Bill Ruger staked his name on good steel and careful heat treatment. David Bradshaw
|
|
wgg
.30 Stingray
Posts: 158
|
Post by wgg on Nov 17, 2018 18:49:35 GMT -5
Thank you for the response.
|
|