Wasp
.30 Stingray
Posts: 312 
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Post by Wasp on Apr 9, 2015 21:51:48 GMT -5
Not to trash this thread, but is the New Vaquero similar, I know the hammers are similar/same?
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Post by lscg on Apr 9, 2015 23:55:38 GMT -5
excellent explanation Mr. Bradshaw! thank you very much for sharing your Knowledge.
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Post by bradshaw on Apr 10, 2015 0:21:15 GMT -5
wasp.... hardly trashing the thread. Yes, all New Model hammer/trigger work is basically the same. New Model refers first and foremost to Ruger's transfer bar system.
lscg.... thank you,
David Bradshaw
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44spl
.30 Stingray
Posts: 146
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Post by 44spl on Apr 10, 2015 3:41:08 GMT -5
The work on the failed hammer appears to be the less permanent technique for shortening the hammer notch. By soldering a small lump of hard silver solder at the bottom of the notch as shown, it limits the engagement of the sear similar to the drawing. The benefit of this technique is a modification that's not permanent, like stoning the notch shorter. As the notch and sear wear, and the trigger 'let off' gets too light, a file stroke on the solder, deepens the notch and a safe 'let off' is regained.
The groove in the sear is not an uncommon approach. It sizes the end of the sear to just the thickness needed to engage the hammer notch and make easier to perfectly stone a flat surface on the sear. The groove mitigates a hump from developing on the sear surface when stoning the sear.
The same technique is used on the cylinder latch or stop bolt. It prevents a hump to develp in the center of the latch surface preventing the edges from reaching the bottom of the notch as the egdes of the cyl notch wear and round off. It also ensures that both sides of the latch can be fitted to contact flat in the bottom of the cyl notch.
Look in your cyl notches fo the mark to see if your latch is bottoming in the center of the notches instead of at both edges! This causes the edges of the cyl notch to eventually get burred over. In the worse case, cocking the hammer smartly will cause the latch to jump out of the notch. Very often seen on old Colt SAAs. Nasty things happen when the cartridge goes off if the chamber is not locked in alignment with the barrel.
The reason the gun went off is a dysfunctional transfer bar 'IF' the trigger rebounded properly and was all the way forward. Every new model should be tested at the range for proper transfer bar safety action by dropping the hammer on a live round with trigger fully forward in rebound position. And the trigger must get to that position by itself, just by taking the finger off of it!
Jim
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Post by bradshaw on Apr 10, 2015 8:23:59 GMT -5
Jim (44spl)....... sure you don't want to reconsider? Your words left me speechless.
Buckheart posted a photo of a worst case "trigger job"----and you defend it? The work I illustrate has got the job done at the very height of marksmanship.
As for your recommendation to carve a concavity on the cylinder latch, ostensibly to reduce wear in the cylinder notch, consider this: a square corner is stronger than a less-than-90-degree corner. Not to mention that edges thus formed on the latch will soon burnish a ring around the cylinder.
As opposed blueprinting a fugitive trigger, I set out to describe for marksmen and markswomen how to achieve a clean, safe trigger with excellent service life.
David Bradshaw
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Post by boxhead on Apr 11, 2015 5:05:13 GMT -5
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44spl
.30 Stingray
Posts: 146
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Post by 44spl on Apr 12, 2015 1:33:12 GMT -5
Jim (44spl)....... sure you don't want to reconsider? Your words left me speechless. Buckheart posted a photo of a worst case "trigger job"----and you defend it? The work I illustrate has got the job done at the very height of marksmanship. As for your recommendation to carve a convexity on the cylinder latch, ostensibly to reduce wear in the cylinder notch, consider this: a square corner is stronger than a less-than-90-degree corner. Not to mention that edges thus formed on the latch will soon burnish a ring around the cylinder. As opposed blueprinting a fugitive trigger, I set out to describe for marksmen and markswomen how to achieve a clean, safe trigger with excellent service life. David Bradshaw David, That's ok, it's a free country and a friendly board. I thought it might but thought more that you would know about it with your experience. And you did a fine job. I on the other hand was illustrating the proverbial saying; "there's more than one way to skin a cat" Just sharing other methods (not mine) that exist for the benefit of all readers. The "best way" is in the opinion and eye of the professional gunsmith. Other pros have their own ways that they are famous and well known for. "Worse case trigger job" is an opinion. Obviously it has a problem, NOW. Any trigger job using any method can be abused and/or eventually wears. Only scientific testing produces factual evidence, and only that proves or disproves opinions. But you misinterpret the cyl latch modification. It's not convex with sharp edges. As I posted, it's like the trigger sear shown above, just slightly relieved in the center 1/3 to prevent a hump. The remaining bearing surfaces on the latch are still parallel to the bottom of the cyl notch. Consider this: Single action cyl latches having sq corners is incorrect. The latch is offset from the center of the frame window, so it has an angled surface, one corner is more than 90 degrees and one less than 90, therefore does not have sq corners like a double action latch. The correct angle of the latch surface is still maintained with the mod, one corner is more than 90 degrees and one less than 90. So it's just as strong, has merit, and not an ostensible technique. Everyone knows that ALL latches burnish a ring around the cyl, and this mod does no worse. |
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Paden
.375 Atomic
Lower Goldstream Creek
Posts: 1,132
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Post by Paden on Apr 12, 2015 1:59:23 GMT -5
44spl, Having difficulty imagining the 'mod' you're advocating. A diagram might help. Do I read correctly that you're proposing something be done to a cylinder latch similar to what was done to the afore pictured trigger sear?
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Post by bradshaw on Apr 12, 2015 4:40:17 GMT -5
44spl.... "only scientific testing produces factual evidence...," you say.
If so, by science I must presume you mean hours months years of fast draw blended with hard corps marksmanship. Multiply by hundreds if not thousands of serious shooters. Science fed from belt loops and coffee cans.
Perhaps I should answer with a question. Which trigger work do you suppose gets shipped to factory service, mine, or that "other way to skin a cat" represented by the photo buckheart sent?
You are correct that a cylinder latch which engages a few degrees off 6 o'clock may have a slight bevel on top. The offset Rehawk/SRH latch wears a noticeable bevel, and that of big frame Dan Wessons is even more pronounced. Yet, flutes or convexities are present in none, and none shall be introduced. I've cured trigger jobs done by anvil artists. The cure starts with fresh parts, not bastard files and solder.
David Bradshaw
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44spl
.30 Stingray
Posts: 146
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Post by 44spl on Apr 12, 2015 15:52:44 GMT -5
44spl, Having difficulty imagining the 'mod' you're advocating. A diagram might help. Do I read correctly that you're proposing something be done to a cylinder latch similar to what was done to the afore pictured trigger sear? paden, Yes, that's correct. I'm sorry. I don't have a sketch or photo to share, but if you visualize a groove in the surface of the latch like the trigger above, that's it. jim |
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Paden
.375 Atomic
Lower Goldstream Creek
Posts: 1,132
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Post by Paden on Apr 12, 2015 16:30:57 GMT -5
44spl, Having difficulty imagining the 'mod' you're advocating. A diagram might help. Do I read correctly that you're proposing something be done to a cylinder latch similar to what was done to the afore pictured trigger sear? paden, Yes, that's correct. I'm sorry. I don't have a sketch or photo to share, but if you visualize a groove in the surface of the latch like the trigger above, that's it. jim Ok, I can certainly picture that. What I'm still failing to understand is the intent behind such an adulteration. Using my own guns as examples (one I fitted myself, and one fitted by a renowned gunsmith), I note in both cases the profile of the cylinder latch pawl matches perfectly the shape of the receiving notch, the outside edges of the pawl being ever so slightly relieved, and the surface being highly polished so as to virtually eliminate friction against the surface of the cylinder. When locked in battery, the cylinder latch pawl bottoms completely in the cylinder notch, matching its shape perfectly; there is zero lateral play between latch pawl and cylinder notch; there is zero lateral play between latch arm and frame window; there is zero rotational play allowed of the cylinder. This arrangement exemplifies my understanding of proper execution of cylinder latch pawl fitting/function. What am I missing; how does carving a groove down the middle of the latch pawl represent an improvement to the original design engineering? Same question stands reference the earlier photo depiction of the butchered trigger sear; how does gouging a channel across the face of the sear represent an improvement to the original engineering design? |
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44spl
.30 Stingray
Posts: 146
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Post by 44spl on Apr 12, 2015 19:15:15 GMT -5
44spl.... "only scientific testing produces factual evidence...," you say. If so, by science I must presume you mean hours months years of fast draw blended with hard corps marksmanship. Multiply by hundreds if not thousands of serious shooters. Science fed from belt loops and coffee cans. Perhaps I should answer with a question. Which trigger work do you suppose gets shipped to factory service, mine, or that "other way to skin a cat" represented by the photo buckheart sent? You are correct that a cylinder latch which engages a few degrees off 6 o'clock may have a slight bevel on top. The offset Rehawk/SRH latch wears a noticeable bevel, and that of big frame Dan Wessons is even more pronounced. Yet, flutes or convexities are present in none, and none shall be introduced. I've cured trigger jobs done by anvil artists. The cure starts with fresh parts, not bastard files and solder. David Bradshaw Hi David, A scientific test is a controlled comparative side by side testing of different action tune methods with same # of shots, same loads, same guns with wear analysis and measurements ,as opposed to anecdotal experiences. Don't hold your breath because although it's superior to opinion and individual judgments, testing ain't likely to happen. So we necessarily resort to the latter which at best is not conclusive, just argumentative. That's why you won't find me defending or condemning alternate methods. Only describing them as I did in my initial post. And then clarifying anything that was misunderstood, period. On your question, I don't speculate or care. I don't use either method but have studied them all and pick and choose what I like about each to use on my guns. Again to clarify what you misunderstood, the solder technique is not a cure for anvil artist trigger jobs, one starts with new parts. And removing the solder restores the part to original specs, if wanted. Of course new parts are used whenever a worn or poor job can not be salvaged, which can be occasionally. But professionals of course will only start from scratch. But individuals working on their own guns don't have to worry about their reputation just their skill levels and wallets. So we don't want to mix apples and oranges here. We have readers who won't touch their guns except to shoot and clean, others that can do everything for themselves, and those everywhere in between and wallets that vary from thick to thin. Therefore I try to post for the benefit and share all information I'm aware of for the entire range of gun owners and shooters, w/o being judgmental. That seems to be what you take issue with. I hope that's helpful. Jim |
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44spl
.30 Stingray
Posts: 146
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Post by 44spl on Apr 12, 2015 20:11:53 GMT -5
paden, Yes, that's correct. I'm sorry. I don't have a sketch or photo to share, but if you visualize a groove in the surface of the latch like the trigger above, that's it. jim Ok, I can certainly picture that. What I'm still failing to understand is the intent behind such an adulteration. Using my own guns as examples (one I fitted myself, and one fitted by a renowned gunsmith), I note in both cases the profile of the cylinder latch pawl matches perfectly the shape of the receiving notch, the outside edges of the pawl being ever so slightly relieved, and the surface being highly polished so as to virtually eliminate friction against the surface of the cylinder. When locked in battery, the cylinder latch pawl bottoms completely in the cylinder notch, matching its shape perfectly; there is zero lateral play between latch pawl and cylinder notch; there is zero lateral play between latch arm and frame window; there is zero rotational play allowed of the cylinder. This arrangement exemplifies my understanding of proper execution of cylinder latch pawl fitting/function. What am I missing; how does carving a groove down the middle of the latch pawl represent an improvement to the original design engineering? Same question stands reference the earlier photo depiction of the butchered trigger sear; how does gouging a channel across the face of the sear represent an improvement to the original engineering design? I'm glad you asked since the concept is simple but seems not as simple to explain, and probably that's my fault. First of all, this is not my method and I have no dog in this hunt. Those that want to understand it great, those that don't that's fine with me too. The concept is the same for trigger or cyl latch. As described in my first post, look at the witness mark or 'footprint' from the cyl latch in the bottom of the cyl notch. Is the shiny spot in the center of the notch, left side, right side or all the way across? On most and of course the more use the gun has seen, the more obvious the spot will be, it's in the center of the notch, instead of one shiny spot from one edge of the notch to the other edge. Which means the left and right edges of the latch are not bottoming in the notch, right? And that's something you identified that SHOULD HAPPEN for a proper latch fit. So what's gone wrong? There's a hump or less worn area in the center of the latch surface; it's "high centering", (like a 4 wheel drive and the tires can't reach the ground enough to get traction.) Why is that? 1. The latch was not properly shaped to begin with; very common on mass produced guns. OR, 2. Parts and Action jobs WEAR! Because the edges of the latch receive the most wear by contacting the edges of the notch every time the latch engages and disengages the notch. Eventually the edges wear down, both the latch and the notch edges; especially on old, old guns, heavily used guns, rapidly cycled guns, or abused guns. Therefore the center of the latch ends up higher than the edges and is the only surface engaging fully and bottoming in the cyl notch. AND the edges of the latch no longer reach the bottom of the notch, eventually causing the problems we've all seen on worn single actions and especially old Colts: 1. When the gun is cocked, especially smartly, the cyl blows by the left edge of the latch, 'over carry up', 'over travel'(pops into the notch and pops right out again). Now the chamber is not aligned with the bore and if not noticed, pulling the trigger can ruin your day. OR, 2. the right edge of the latch won't lock in the notch allowing the cyl to roll back; again causing mis-alignment of chamber to bore. Long term Solution over the life of the action job and parts wear: Maybe the concept is obvious by now; crater or remove the center of the latch surface. Now, even though the edges wear, they continue to bottom in the notch and on both sides! And you will see two shiny footprints at the bottom of the notch, one from each edge of the latch on both sides of the notch bottom. Will you ever see this on a production gun? No of course not it's an extra step and the same reason you won't see action jobs on production guns. Hope this helps, Jim |
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Paden
.375 Atomic
Lower Goldstream Creek
Posts: 1,132
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Post by Paden on Apr 12, 2015 22:43:31 GMT -5
Jim,
You've explained it well, thanks.
In the event of such extremely worn parts as you describe my choice would be to properly reshape/refit the latch to it's original shape and fit, or replace it entirely. I respectfully disagree with the notion that making any surface of the latch pawl convex to any degree whatsoever is ever appropriate.
Same goes for a trigger sear surfaces; I'll maintain that they should always be maintained as dead flat, square and true, and well polished. No hacking, cutting, chopping, grinding welding or soldering need be applied.
Best,
Paden
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Wasp
.30 Stingray
Posts: 312
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Post by Wasp on Apr 13, 2015 0:12:12 GMT -5
I don't want to get mixed in this too much because you guys obviously outweigh me with experience.
I don't know about any of the rest of you, but personally I have a accurate scale of safety v.s. my wallet, and my wallet looses every single time. This is why it's hard for me to justify drop in kits that "lighten the trigger" which can be a scary thing all to often IMO, each gun and it's parts are generally to varied for me to drop in super light trigger parts. I would feel much better if I'm only dropping a few pounds on a DAO pistol such as say a S&W 442, but if were talking a single action that's already pretty light I would feel much better letting a pro do it, despite popular belief, it's hard to fing a good gunsmith (not directing that at either one of you).
Recently I bought a K Frame and asked a new smith about polishing the action to remove some grittiness, but I explained I didnt want to lighten anything necessarily past what the general polish would do, I'm pretty happy with the factory pull. He was adamant no matter how many times I refused that he would lighten the trigger over and over. He wouldn't even explain to me what process he planned to use, I am so amateur there is no way I could replicate his work anyway, and with him being so adamant about doing it I am looking for a new smith, because safety is more important to me than a super light hair trigger. If I knew him, his methods, his work, and he hadn't tried arguing with my wishes this might have been a different story.
I don't know which one of you is correct, but if it's my wallet that's a concern, I'll take the one that's most mechanically safe regardless of cost.
Btw, I do have experience shooting with light triggers, just not doing the work myself.
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