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Post by 2 Dogs on Mar 28, 2017 23:21:12 GMT -5
Now 4 pages into this thread, I have decided to change the heading and reword the introductory paragraph a little bit. As I have gone down this path with a number of sixgunners who have troublesome sixguns, I have had to make clear any number of times, to end up with a trouble free lead bullet shooting sixgun correcting the cylinder throats is only the first step. In some cases the throats cannot be corrected because they are already too big, so the size of the bullet you are shooting needs to be larger than standard. I have ended up guiding some guys through the step by step process that follows beyond correcting the throats in order to get their sixgun right. So in short, helping you with a sixgun that is leading is what I am here to do. Do not suffer in silence, send me a PM. I will help you even if you do not hire me to do any work.
If any of you guys need to have your cylinder looked at shoot me a PM. Undersized throats are not what you need for best accuracy. I am in the process of getting the reamers together to cut these correctly. Sixguns that don't shoot make me tired. If you are seeing leading you have to fix the throats before you can address the barrel. I will measure and return your cylinder for the price of postage. If you need to have your throats opened up we can also deal with that. Additionally, if you are unsure what size your bullet really is, send some along with the cylinder and we will get them measured as well.
With our better sixgun smiths just getting further and further backlogged I have decided to see if I can lend a hand.
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Post by potatojudge on Mar 28, 2017 23:33:32 GMT -5
Very kind of you Fermin, and you're absolutely right about the backlog right now.
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Post by foxtrapper on Mar 29, 2017 5:21:40 GMT -5
Great news! Little by little I think one day there will be a full custom by Fermin. Line forms behind me fellas! Lol
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Post by bushog on Mar 29, 2017 5:39:28 GMT -5
YOU GET THE .313 REAMER?
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cmillard
.375 Atomic
MOLON LABE
Posts: 1,946
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Post by cmillard on Mar 29, 2017 16:16:29 GMT -5
You beat me to it fermin. I have thought about doing this as well. Manson reamers make a nice smooth set up for this
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Post by 2 Dogs on May 7, 2017 14:26:49 GMT -5
Yes, for some reason they only listed .3135" and I had to do a "special" order to get a "correct" one at .313". All you guys that have either a Buckeye or a Single Six Bisley 32/32-20 should have your throats checked. Every one I have measured have been quite undersized. |
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Post by bushog on May 7, 2017 15:00:43 GMT -5
I sent mine down!
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jsh
.327 Meteor
Posts: 884
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Post by jsh on May 8, 2017 17:47:15 GMT -5
Fermin, what's your stance on the 45ACP cylinders?
I have 5.5 Bisley 45 Colt /45 ACP. I thought the ACP would be handy to unload culls from my 625. It has done a good job.
I know, if it ain't broke don't fix it. It shot all the culls better than the 45 Colt would do. The throats pinned about the same. Alloy was the same as well. Just vanilla loads in the Colt.
I did come by a reamer and pilots, .4525. It did make a difference. But, I still have a bit of thread choke that will be taken care of this summer.
My thoughts are get the 45 Colt up to snuff and see what the ACP does and go from there.
Put this up here as the figured others may have similar questions.
I will PM or email you some time on some 32 cylinders.
Jeff
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Post by 2 Dogs on May 11, 2017 2:26:11 GMT -5
Jeffer, as long as you are shooting cast slugs that seal your throats you should be good to go.
Couple things however, I just reamed a full size Ruger 45 ACP cylinder for a client and it was quite a chore as the throats were quite undersized to begin with. Add in the fact that you have to cut a considerable distance and it turns into a monster. Ruger steel is hard! You have to use the correct pilot to keep the reamer dead center and proceed with care to not score the throat.
Item #2.
I have spoken on the phone to a couple of the guys here lately. (Really?? I ain't Brad Pitt and it saves me a good deal of typing sometimes!!!) if your throats are oversized for your cast bullet it can create a situation where you are getting gas blow by which blows all the lubricant out of your grease groove sending your bullet down the barrel with no lubricant to create a gasket between your lead bullet and your steel barrel. Oversized throats are a whole different issue because now you either need a bullet with a larger/thicker diameter or a whole new cylinder.
As always, be sure to pull your base pin and examine your barrel. Look at your muzzle. It should have a "star" of lubricant.
So, pull your base pin. Look at your muzzle. If you see leading and are not sure why send me a PM. Include your phone number. I will do my very best to help you diagnose the issue and proceed down a more harmonious path.
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Post by bushog on May 11, 2017 7:38:01 GMT -5
I will do my very best to help you diagnose the issue and proceed down a more harmonious path. I should call every morning! |
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Post by 2 Dogs on May 11, 2017 9:51:22 GMT -5
If you do, you better be dressed sexy!!
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kooz
.327 Meteor
Posts: 618
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Post by kooz on May 11, 2017 10:20:08 GMT -5
It would be nice to have a solid reliable place to send cylinders with minimum wait time. I have sent cylinders out to basically all of the top smiths at one time or another through the years , either as a stand alone cylinder reaming job or as part of a build . Here are some observations from the most recent interaction with one of these smiths. A couple of the "top" smiths (one which I would say is the most well known) use the Sunnen #190 small hole hone as opposed the the manson reamer . I have many years experience running the Sunnen hone when I was still machining , it would be the best way to open up these cyl throats , BUT the operator must know what he is doing or the piece you are honing will be all over the place as far as inside diameter , and this is what I have seen with the smiths that use the Sunnen hone, they don't know how to run them and as a result throats are hour glass shaped and are not consistant from throat to throat, they would be way better off to use the manson reamer set-up . The last three cylinders I sent in to get honed all had to be scraped as the builder ruined all three of them with the hone, he did make good and paid for the guns to be repaired by Ruger. It was an eye opening experience talking to him after I received the cylinders back and measured them . This builder did not know how to use the hone , does not use a honing cabinet with constant fluid delivery to the piece being worked on nor did they realize that the stones needed to be kept square or "dressed" with the supplied dressing standard nor did they have any idea that the "stroke" of the hone needed to be regulated to the length of the hole being honed to avoid "end loading" which causes the hourglass shaped hole. Also they do not use a small dial bore guage to constantly check their progress while working on the piece. These guys use a plug guage and just wail away on the cylinder throat with the hone and shoot some wd-40 in once in a while until the plug gauge goes thru !!??
After a long talk with the guy about all of this , he says " well try the guns anyways, because we have found that throat size has very little to do with accuracy , it is mostly a function of the barrel" WOW !?!
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Post by 2 Dogs on May 11, 2017 12:49:50 GMT -5
Kooz, thank you very much for your excellent and informative post. Please consider PMing me your contact information as I always enjoy a visit especially with such a valuable resource.
The most accurate way I have seen cylinder throats done is on a milling machine with a digital readout on the X and Y axis. It takes a bit of set up time but the throats are consistent as to diameter and quite centered.
I think with the Manson tools the important thing to understand is that as issued from the factory the cylinder throats often vary in size. It is therefore important to use the appropriate bushing for each throat.
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ryan
.30 Stingray
Posts: 402 
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Post by ryan on May 14, 2017 13:24:14 GMT -5
After a long talk with the guy about all of this , he says " well try the guns anyways, because we have found that throat size has very little to do with accuracy , it is mostly a function of the barrel" WOW !?! Sounds just like the conversation I had recently with a well known revolversmith. We were discussing a caliber conversion (simple chamber reaming to a wildcat cartridge of the same caliber) but the revolver I was providing for the project had tight throats, including one that was tighter than the other five! He said it didn't matter and had nothing to do with accuracy. And he stated that no one cared about throats before "Brian Pearce mentioned it in an article about 10 years ago". I was blown away. |
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Post by bradshaw on May 14, 2017 21:49:00 GMT -5
ryan.... the issue of throat (exit hole) diameter in a revolver cylinder has been tossed around since before any of us were born. The larger question is why does manufacturer “A” make correct exit holes in .22LR, .38/.357, and .44, and oversize exits in .45? While manufacture “B” makes correct exits for most calibers, and undersize exits in .45? With both persisting at this game for years. Tight is always more desirable than loose, because tight provides material for adjustment. Not to mention tight exits, may produce extreme accuracy with jacketed bullets.
Competition in IHMSA silhouette demonstrated by 1980 what works, and what doesn’t, delivering by 1983 proof irrefutable.
Accuracy is country simple when a revolver is dimensionally sound. Complexity sets in when one or more of the vital dimensions stray. From accuracy’s perspective not all dimensions are equal. For instance, the crown is far less important than the forcing cone.
However one goes about enlarging a tight exit hole, great care must be exercised to maintain the axis of the chamber and keep the hole straight & true.
David Bradshaw
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