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Post by 2 Dogs on Jul 16, 2017 14:21:20 GMT -5
1. Ok, so I did a 32 H&R cylinder for a client yesterday. It was interesting because every one of his throats measured .311". So, I was able to measure it in a short period of time as well as cut all 6 throats with the same pilot set up on the reamer. Total 40 bucks. Not saying that will happen every time but still. 2. Hittman has an interesting issue. The question is, are his .30 carbine throats so undersized the backpressue is causing sticky extraction? Will keep you .30 Carbine guys in the loop. Or, even better, any Ruger 30 Carbine shooters have sticky extraction go away AFTER correcting undersized cylinder throats??? Ok, I received and measured Hittmans 30 Carbine cylinder an lo and behold but his throats are .3095" plus. His jacketed bullets meaured UNDER .308" at .3075" plus so we know "backpressue" from too small of a cylinder throat is not his issue. We also know that if he ever needs a cast bullet it will need to be close to .310". In the meantime, I heard from a few other 30 Carbine Ruger Blackhawk owners who also had cylinder throats that would take a .309 pin gauge. So, like so many other Ruger cylinder throats, the 30 Carbine models seem to vary as well. Long and short, is that Hittmans throats DO NOT NEED TO BE REAMED.
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Post by 2 Dogs on Jul 24, 2017 14:41:04 GMT -5
I got in another 30 Carbine cylinder today with reports of sticky extraction. Measuring the cylinder throats again showed these were not undersize. In fact 4 were just over .309" and 2 were just under .309". I also discovered that the 2 that were just under .309" were hour glass shaped. No, I do not have Superman X Ray vision, but when a .309" minus pin will start in the rear and in the front of the cylinder throat and in both cases stop in the middle, there is a high spot in there. This tells me someone has tried to open these throats but it was not done correctly.
I also looked at the chambers to see if I could see any machine marks. The chambers themselves looked to have been polished a bit, but left rough. I would say a 320 grit finish. But dont hold me to that. My Superman X Ray vision only goes so far. So, I called up my client and asked him to take some of his fired cases over to one of his machine shop buddies to measure them.
Keep in mind that your 30 Carbine cases are tapered and you should measure them with a micrometer starting at the web and working your way to the case mouth going round and round. What are looking to see is if at any point your fired case shows signs of being "bulged" or out of round. This would tell you somebody at some point got in there and polished that/those chambers too much. This would definitely cause sticky extraction...
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Post by 2 Dogs on Jul 27, 2017 22:47:30 GMT -5
Last couple of days have been pretty busy, did a Redhawk cylinder for a client and the attached crane and related parts were no bother at all. The stainless cut smoothly and evenly and I admit to sweating that a bit. Not much you can do except be sure to use plenty of cutting oil and pay attention. In the end all went all and the client was well satisfied. Today I received a Colt cylinder from a Client who I have had several conversations with over the past several weeks. This particular Colt 44 Special is clearly very important to him and he was clearly reluctant to send it off to let some yahoo even measure it. Still, finally overcome with frustration he did send it to me. As I expected, his cylinder throats were quite oversize. A .433" minus pin gauge entered and displayed a bit of wiggle in every throat. In some, a .434" gauge would start, a clear indication of a hour glass throat as discussed by my new friend above. Guys, no matter what forum I go on, I read about complaints of sixgun leading. With sixguns you cannot put the cart before the horse. For the benefit of anyone who has not yet read this, I am going to post this link yet again: www.gunblast.com/FerminGarza-Firelapping.htmMy point here is you have to be sure the cylinder is right before you can do anything else. In this case, we can't make the throats smaller. Remember, we are discussing a COLT in this case, not the far stronger Ruger sixgun. As I spoke to my Client, I recommended he try some bullets no smaller than .433" diameter and no heavier than 220 grains. BHN should be 10-12 but NO HARDER. This is important because you are already sending a bullet that is quite a bit over your bore size in diameter and you don't want to squeeze out all the lube groove before it can make it into the barrel. As I was talking to him, I remembered both Taffin and Murbach in the past had made reference to Colt having installed 44-40 barrels on 44 special sixguns. Just to be sure I was giving my new Client the best possible advice I put him on hold and called JT, added him to the conference call, and ran this all past him. Fortunately JT had taught me well and he assured us both that a .433" 10-12 BHN slug would easily pass down a 44-40 barrel with no issues. My client was quite pleased to have a chance to speak to the old man on the mountain himself and I was content two have arranged the meeting. Later in the day, and just because I haven't called him in a while I ran all this past my reloading guru Murbach as well. So, my client is going to try some GAS CHECKED 429215 .433" bullets in his Colt and we will get back to you. My old friend JT made the comment to my new client that he could remember the days when Fermin didn't know anything.... Some guys wonder why would I help out a complete stranger.... Maybe it's a way of a paying it forward. Maybe you should try it. Bit of a blessing having resources like these...
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paulg
.375 Atomic
Posts: 2,420
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Post by paulg on Aug 2, 2017 17:22:09 GMT -5
I knew a hooker once with an undersized throat. Was bad for business! :-)
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Post by joeb4065 on Aug 23, 2017 19:34:46 GMT -5
I sent my 32 H&R cylinder to 2dogs after reading this thread. I just bought the gun, pin gauged the cylinder, all were at .311 as he mentioned they would probably be. I called him to discuss the situation, then sent the cylinder to him for teaming. Great value for the work done, and quick like a bunny! Shoots much nicer now. Now to find the "one hole" load. Fermin is a great guy, wealth of information, and freely shares with those of us that have less understanding.
Joe
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Post by 2 Dogs on Dec 8, 2017 2:42:14 GMT -5
Did several cylinders in a row from some guys who are working in Alaska. That's a whole nother world away from S. Texas. One client told me where he was you never shut off your vehicle. That's pretty damn cold if you ask me. We got some snow tonite here and at 57 that makes 3 times in my lifetime!
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Yetiman
.327 Meteor
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Posts: 582
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Post by Yetiman on Dec 8, 2017 9:47:54 GMT -5
It even snowed at the Alamo! Here in SE Wisconsin we have barely had a flurry yet, though that should change tonight.
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Post by 2 Dogs on Dec 30, 2017 14:06:06 GMT -5
Will you guys who are getting the newest batch of Ruger 32 H&R Bisley sixguns give me an idea how the cylinder throats are looking? Will a jacketed bullet slip through these? Anybody need theirs measured?
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Post by markh66 on Dec 31, 2017 7:16:15 GMT -5
Will you guys who are getting the newest batch of Ruger 32 H&R Bisley sixguns give me an idea how the cylinder throats are looking? Will a jacketed bullet slip through these? Anybody need theirs measured? My Bisley 32 just came in. First shots today will be with the 100 grain Hornady XTP at .312. They slip through each throat and are not sloppy loose. I have some 120 grainers from Corder coming at .313. I'll let you know how they fit.
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Post by 2 Dogs on Jan 29, 2018 0:44:42 GMT -5
I got another real interesting job in the other day. My client complains his Toklat 454 Ruger with 340 grain bullets has sticky extraction (I forget how fast they were going but I'm pretty sure you couldn't get them going any faster, will amend this later) with maximum loads. His gas checked cast bullets were .453" diameter and he was not seeing any leading. He wanted to know if I would polish his chambers to see if that would ease his full cylinder extraction issues.
When the cylinder arrived, I was a bit surprised at how well the cylinder was already polished. I would call it a high 400 finish. That is pretty slick for a factory gun. About the only ones that are better are the FA's and the old Colt Python Royal Blue guns. However, when I measured the throats, I was surprised to find that they were all a bit over .455".
Hmmm, he is running a .453" bullet at maximum velocity through a .455" plus throat and not getting any leading from gas blow by? Well, there was also a bit of soot on the chamber walls. My theory is that a 340 grain 45 caliber bullet is pretty long for caliber. That means the ogive of the bullet might well be past the forcing cone and engaging the rifling while the base of the bullet is still in the throat. So, when the bullet starts to compress from the front the gas has to go somewhere so it is not only escaping the barrel cylinder gap but coming back around the case as well until the base of the bullet starts to upset and cuts the gas flow off and seals the throat and thereby preventing total loss of the bullet lube and leading of the bore.
Hey, I don't know everything. But I blocked off the throats and polished the chambers to a higher finish. I checked and sure enough this madman indeed had some 340 grain 45 caliber gas check bullets on hand. So, I sized them .455" and am sending them off to my client. I am tossing this out here in advance to see if my thinking is right and if I got this cat skinned right or not. We should know something back from my client in a week or two.
If anyone else is shooting locomotive derailing loads through their Toklat and experiencing hard extraction I would like to hear from you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2018 14:34:12 GMT -5
I was getting 1411FPS out of the .453, 340gr bullet mentioned above. Good accuracy, but ejecting all 6 at once would of required a large mallet. Fermin wanted to look over the cylinder, so off it went. Cylinder along with some .455x330gr LBT's arrive back shortly from Fermin. I back prior load off 1.5 grains and load the new .455 bullets. Granted, I lost 10 grains of bullet, however the .455's over 1.5 grains LESS powder is giving me 4FPS MORE velocity than the prior load, AND ejecting all six cases by hand. Probably a combination of bullet fit and cylinder wall smoothness. Getting around the issues of tolerance, and steel type, in Ruger six shot 454 cylinders can be done.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2018 22:03:32 GMT -5
My Ruger Flattop 44 SPL does OK with Oregon Trail 240LSWC (lube streaks, some leading) but I tried some .430" Keith bullets today at 1065fps and it is leading badly. Shoots jacketed bullets into nice little groups. Need to figure it out at some point because it sure would be nice to shoot economical loads.
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Post by 2 Dogs on Feb 18, 2018 22:26:13 GMT -5
My Ruger Flattop 44 SPL does OK with Oregon Trail 240LSWC (lube streaks, some leading) but I tried some .430" Keith bullets today at 1065fps and it is leading badly. Shoots jacketed bullets into nice little groups. Need to figure it out at some point because it sure would be nice to shoot economical loads. I will need to take a look at your cylinder (please be sure it is squeaky clean) as well as some of the cast bullets you intend to shoot. I will not only be able to tell you what size your throats are, but what size and hardness your bullets are. There is no charge for this except return postage. You have a PM.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2018 21:00:40 GMT -5
Shot Toklat a little more today. Truing throats definitely improved accuracy, ejection issue cured.
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bones
.30 Stingray
Posts: 142
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Post by bones on Mar 27, 2018 8:16:09 GMT -5
Fermin has been walking me through this process with my Single Seven. We determined my cylinder throats aren't undersized. I did, however, have some loaded rounds that likely had been crimped too aggressively. Paying closer attention to my crimping seems to have cleared up some leading issues I was spotting. Thanks Fermin for the advice!
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