A couple of firelapping notes....

[2 Dogs]

So I wrote the firelapping informational article sometime back, gunblast.com/FerminGarza-Firelapping.htm , and have been fielding questions on several websites ever since. One thing that I have noticed is that alot of guys are asking the wrong questions when they find they have a leading issue. One of the easiest things to do is to simply look at your muzzle. Here is a good example of a picture of a lube star on a sixgun muzzle. This tell you your bullet lube is making it all the way out of the barrel. If you dont see this, its time to take a good look at your sixguns dimensions.


Another thing you need to do is examine your cases. If you see this you also have problems as it shows your bullet lube isnt making it into the barrel at all. In this particular case, the bullet, a 340 grain 44 magnum bullet pushed at max velocity was a bit too SOFT for the application at hand. Remember your bullet is being pushed into the forcing cone from the back and the forcing cone is also forcing the bullet to conform to its demensions. No lube in the barrel equals LOTS of leading. This particular sixgun, My Harton Custom Ruger Redhawk 44 magnum had perfect dimensions so I knew the gun wasnt the problem. So I simply cast some new bullets, water dropped them to harden them, and the problem went away.


If you have a leading issues with plain base bullets you need to be sure your cylinder throats are correct, shoot the largest bullet that will fit your throat, and if you still see leading in the barrel, measure your barrel as described and firelap as needed.

Let me know if I can help you with your particular problem. Thanks for reading.

[Boge Quinn]

Here's a better pic of Fermin's nasty muzzle:



Here's a pic of Fermin's OTHER nasty muzzle:



Don't ask me for a pic of his OTHER lube star!

[2 Dogs]

ROFLMAO!!! Boge! Thats IT!! Now we know what to scrimshaw on the other stock panel!!!!

[tek4260]

Well that answers some questions for sure. My 44 cases look like that with the new 300gr HP's I loaded. I usually cast straight WW, water dropped. For the HP's I tried 50/50 air cooled. That along with a max load....

Back to the drawing board

[Boge Quinn]

Apr 11, 2011 19:59:35 GMT -5 2 Dogs said:

ROFLMAO!!! Boge! Thats IT!! Now we know what to scrimshaw on the other stock panel!!!!

;D ;D ;D

[Fowler]

Ok Fermin answer me this one. My FA 475 consistently leaves lube on the front of the cases just like your second picture, this is true with light or heavy loads with my 475 cylinder or my 480 cylinder in place. But it also leaves a perfect muzzle star just like your first picture and I have never found any leading to speak of in the barrel of this gun.

I wonder if with it being a 4 3/4" barrel it does not need as much lube as a longer barrel might need but I am only guessing here. The gun certainly will shoot better than I can, I was getting sub 6" groups from a sitting position last fall at 100 yards on my gongs...

[xtratoy]

[quote author=bogequinn

Don't ask me for a pic of his OTHER lube star!



[/quote]
Now thats funny, disturbing, but funny.

[gsp7]

Got a question about bullet size, If one of my 44mags(Abilene) has over size throats .435, and a .429 bore , instead of shooting .430 bullets (.001 larger than the bore), should I go ahead and use .431 dia bullets (.002 larger)with a .429 bore ?

Any other bullet size recommendation for that throat/bore ?

[2 Dogs]

Bill, obviously you are quite close with your bullet/barrel/cyl throat combination. Close enough that you are having good sucess even though your bullet lube isnt all making it into the barrel. Still, for now I suggest you play with your bullet hardness just a bit, maybe going just a bit harder for your particular barrel. It worked for me. At this point without further information, ie, how hard is your bullet, how big are your throats, whats your barrel dia., your question is difficult to answer. Are you shooting a plain base bullet?? Remind me to tote along my pin gauges and such, we can measure your FA some in June. You might have the slightest restriction in the bore, less than .001 or your bore might be just a little bit rough. We'll take a look. If you want to measure it, tap a soft slug in the front and pull it out and measure it and do the same for the rear. Only go in the depth of the slug itself. That way you can find out if the front of your bore is bigger than the rear. Remember, often times, a barrel with less than prime demensions will shoot quite well.

GSP, What you would need is a bullet dia. of .436 and it would need to be fairly soft, and you would need to keep pressure down simular to a standard 45 Colt or a bit more. Now, where you are going to get .436 dia 44 bullets I cant say. You will probably have to have a mold made as no 44 mold I have drops a bullet that big even before sizing. I doubt a smaller bullet than that will help as the lube normally will just get blown out of the lube groove before it ever gets into the barrel. Not all sixguns are going to do well with cast. If it were mine, I would try some of those "plated" bullets like Rainier sells and see what you see. Short of that, you could sell it and start over, rechamber/rebarrel to 45 colt, or find a cylinder on gunbroker.com or some such. Best of luck with that one, let me know how it works out.

[dale53]

gsp7;
Very often a sixgun will shoot well with bullets .001" under cylinder throat sizes. You probably won't have any difficulty getting a custom mould manufacturer to make you a mould that will cast a .434" bullet. Then lube it in a .434" sizing die (it won't size but will lube well) and shoot it. I believe that you'll find it'll shoot well.

On the other hand, Accurate Molds will size a bullet mould to cast a bullet of YOUR desired dimensions, That might be the best way to go. They have reportedly VERY quick turn around - give them a call:

accuratemolds.com/index.php

Dale53

FWIW
Dale53

[2 Dogs]

Yes. Try the biggest bullet you can find before giving up. While you should never say never, the above has never worked for me hence I cannot go along with the "often" part. I went out and measured some 44 bullets in my shop. I dont have any big enough to send you to try. Maybe someone else here does. My biggest on hand is .433". If you do opt for a custom mold, buy one that fits your gun not .001" undersize!

[J Miller]

gsp7,

Here is a couple examples of what 2 Dogs and dale53 are saying.

Example I; I have an early 80s S&W 25-5 in .45 Colt. The throats measure out exactly .457" and the grove diameter .4515" as best as I can tell. It is a leading FIEND and with most commonly available bullets very inaccurate. About 10 years ago I talked to Marshal Stanton at Beartooth bullets about trying his 265gr Keith bullets sized to .457".
I asked him if shooting the .457" bullets into a .4515" barrel would jack up the pressure excessively. He said no. I bought some, loaded them over 9.0grs Unique, my most common load and shot them. I shot them against the same basic design bullet sized to .454" and the difference was night and day. With the Beartooth bullets there was NO leading, and the gun shot 2" groups at 25 yards. I was amazed. I've since shot my own Lyman 454424 bullets sized to .455" over the same charge of Unique and it does almost as well as with the Beartooth bullets.
This revolver is not used anymore because it's just too much of a pain in the backside to bother with. It just sits there as the HD gun and gathers dust.

Example II; Interarms Virginian Dragoon, 5" barrel, .45 Colt. Throats so huge no accuracy was possible. I never slugged them but I should have. That gun would lead up with any lead bullet and even with the W-W and R-P factory ammo with their .456" and 455" bullets there was ZERO accuracy. I even tried a jacketed bullet load that had proven accurate in my other .45 Colts and it threw them all over Maricopa County. Junk is all that gun was and I got rid of it.

With a revolver, throat and barrel dimensions are critical to accuracy. You can play with bullets some, but it doesn't always work.

The two guns I mentioned above need/needed new cylinders to fix their problems. Nothing else would really get the job done. Your .44 is the same way.

Joe

[gsp7]

JMiller,2dogs, dale53

Thanks for the revolver throat size/ accuracy lesson ;D

This brings up a question from me,...What about Ruger throat size? Will I get proper size cylinder throats if I buy a Ruger SBH or BH 45colt? old model vs new model??

I read that Rugers have large throats also. I dont know if this is true , I dont own one yet but have been searching for a deal on a Old Model- SBH or 45colt

Rick

[2 Dogs]

Some do, some dont. Its a bit of a crap shoot with the older guns. The newer guns I have measured have been quite a bit better.
Undersize throats have to be opened up.

[J Miller]

Apr 14, 2011 12:39:40 GMT -5 gsp7 said:

JMiller,2dogs, dale53

Thanks for the revolver throat size/ accuracy lesson ;D

This brings up a question from me,...What about Ruger throat size? Will I get proper size cylinder throats if I buy a Ruger SBH or BH 45colt? old model vs new model??

I read that Rugers have large throats also. I dont know if this is true , I dont own one yet but have been searching for a deal on a Old Model- SBH or 45colt

Rick

I can't say about the 44 mags, but I've owned 2 Old Models, and 2 New Model Blackhawks in .45 Colt.
The first OM shot perfect. Any bullet, it didn't care. No leading great accuracy.
The second OM, the one I've got now, had undersized and out of round throats. This played havoc with accuracy and it leaded pretty badly too.
Since having the throats reamed to .4525" it shoots pretty darn good.

The two NM BH's I owned shot fine but I suspect at least one of them could have used some throat reaming. I didn't know about the throats when I had them, so I never measured them.

The only rule of thumb with Rugers throats is, check 'em first then go from there.

Joe