Life slowing down and SA

[1horseman]

When the life started to slow down (around 60), I decided it's time to get some "serious" SA revolvers, and prior to that point, I only had two matching .44 Remington New Army percussions. Then I got a Single Six as a present, but I've never been much of a .22LR shooter (although I loved shooting this one in .22Mag). So, I started looking. After selling all my companies (some I had sole ownership, and some being the managing partner), I moved in the proverbial "middle of nowhere" Idaho. Needless to say, my closest town being 20 miles away, and having a population of 3000 (on a good day), choices for firearms purchase are limited to Murdoch's, and two gunshops/pawnshops. Not too many choices, and even if something shows up on trade or consignment, it'll be gone by the time I stop by (once every two week or so). That leaves Internet, with its bias, fake websites, and overly "enthusiastic" sellers on Gunjoker. 

First, I had to decide on the caliber. At that time, I had two DAs also (beside the two mentioned .44 Rem NA)....A S&W 66 (.357), and S&W M10 (.38SPL). I decided on .44Mag (blame Mr. Keith, of Mr. Eastwood). But what brand?

Local Murdoch's had several Piettas, and few Ubertis. I looked them over, shook them, worked the action, and I thought them to be to.......well, the only word that comes to my mind is "light", almost "toylike" (no offence to anyone). Since I am different, and since I've spent my early years in Bavaria, I looked at the EAA offering, being fully aware of the atrocious record EAA has when it comes to "customer service". Actually,......I have to take that back. EAA Customer Service is perfectly normal for European standards. For example.....when you walk in the American restaurant, you are greeted with a big smile, big "hi, my name is so and so and I will be your server, this is our today's special.....", in the average European restaurant you are greeted with a gloomy face and "what do you want". But I digress. 

I was fully aware of the reputation German revolvers had in the early years. Most of them were garbage, except maybe Hawes/J.P Sauer offerings. As we can all agree (I hope) is that Germany produced some of the best firearms on the planet (Mauser, Luger, HK....etc.), and since I own several Sig/Sauer automatics, I decided to take a chance on the "Bounty Hunter" in .44Mag. In my other post, I outlined what needed (or not needed) to be done to it right out of the box. One thing I didn't mention was the grip frame made of Zamak (which I detest!), and I wanted to replace it promptly with brass. I've found out that using the brass GF from the revolver that's not equipped with transfer bar to the one with transfer bar is a no go (reason is the position of the trigger in the trigger guard). So I called my "friendly" countrymen in Bavaria (they sell the same revolver in Europe with brass GF under different name), and was told that I can not purchase a brass grip frame, "because this revolver is sold in the US without it". Perfectly reasonable reason (if you are an unfriendly European). This is their "customer service" (and the EAA follows faithfully).

After firing the thing for the first time, I was hugely relieved, and convinced that I made a right decision. The thing is made like a Tiger Panzer, and eats the hottest (Ruger only) loads. It's heavy (which I like) and very accurate. No need to "turn the barrel", no need to open the throats, no need to adjust timing. New springs, and trigger work is all that it needed.

So why it's not more popular? Is it the bias against early German revolvers made from pewter, or is it something else? I've been around firearms my whole life, and I am a "hobby gunsmith" (work on mine, and my friends only without charge), and I think that Italian offerings in this line of handguns are not comparable in their workmanship, nor material quality (again....no offence to anyone). 

Sorry about the long rant,....I guess I was bored when it's a downpour outside.

[contender]

I always say; "If a man (or woman) is happy with what they have,, then why disparage them for their choices. They may well have different thoughts & attitudes than others."

In other words,, if you are happy,, who cares what others feel ot think.

My only THOUGHT,, is strictly my own ignorance. I have zero knowledge of the type of metal,, or the treatment of it for the strength of shooting "Ruger only" loads. Does EAA say it's safe,,, or not? I've never seen any reference to the EAA SA revolvers being capable of "Ruger/TC Only" loads. Safety first.

I bring this up,, as all too often,, I've seen blown up guns. Heck,, this morning,, I was shown a video of a gun explosion at the SC State USPSA match. It happened yesterday,, (Friday)! The shooter,, using his hat mounted camera was able to record the detonation of his gun. Luckily,, it didn't fully explode,, but it was very obvious what had happened. And the shooter had marks on his hands,, as well as the gun was completely locked up. It was a .9mm semi-auto.

And just because it says; "Ruger/TC loads only" doesn't always mean it's a good idea. I own a blown up Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 mag frame. In this case,, there was severe damage to the gun and some injury to the shooter. And it's an often proven thing,, you may be able to fire several or even hundreds of hotter ammo,, before a gun finally says; "I quit" and explodes.

As for the reasoning of why they aren't more popular,, I can't answer that.

Otherwise,, if it's good for you,,, and safe,,, I say; "Kudos!"

[1horseman]

Thank you.

I am aware of the compounded, stress caused, fractures in metal, and I don't shoot "Ruger only" loads on the regular basis. My preferred "plinking" ammo is .44 SPL 260gr WFNGC hard cast, made by Cor-Bon.

Don't get me wrong,.....I like my only Ruger I have (Single Six), but what always bothered me about them, is the thick top strap that needed to be as thick because the frame is cast. I blame Smith & Wesson for that, because I remember when GP100 came out Ruger was touting their thick top strap in the American Rifleman, and a few weeks later S&W had an add saying "thicker is only better when it comes to burgers" or something to that effect. This Ruger thickness of the top strap creates too big step down to the line of the barrel (on SAs) in my eyes. Colt, Pietta, Uberti, and my lowly Weihrauch have much thinner top strap, and a more pleasing esthetics to me. In my conversation with the people at Weihrauch GmbH, they told me that Bounty Hunter's frame is forged, and I trust them, despite their unfriendliness (or maybe they are normal and I am just too "Americanized"). They are celebrating 125 years in business of making weapons (which for European standards is not a huge achievement), but German metallurgy is (IMHO) bar-none.

As far as EAA and what they are "saying"......nothing. To get a live person there (or customer service of any kind) to talk to is a fool's errand.

In any case....."Ruger only loads" term pertains to .45Colt ammo only. I fired a hundred of the hottest .44 Mags out of this thing (some off the shelf, some handloaded) just to see what it will do, but I am not feeding it a steady diet of it (my old hand doesn't like the abuse anymore).

Regarding popularity of this thing,.......it seems that it's "out of stock" a lot on many websites that offered it for sale. So, it sells. However, it's not discussed much on "gun forums", and I would like to read other people's experiences with it. Problems (I don't have any), issues, long term usage....stuff like that. Italians and Rugers are discussed ad nauseum everywhere, but not this thing. I've read everything Paco, Sarge and many others wrote about it before I purchased it, but it seems once people post an initial review of the piece,.......silence. I wonder why.

This thing is offered for sale very CHEAP. The low price point is made possible by cutting corners in unimportant areas. Grips could fit better (more time needed to fit them = more money), the grip frame could be finished better (casting marks visible in ZAMAK, and finish wearing off of it too quickly), the "color case" could be done more flashy/more pleasing to the eye, trigger could be WAY better....etc. But when it comes to important stuff (not easily corrected), they are right on point. Throats are even, barrels are perfectly aligned with sights, and they are timed better than revolvers costing four times as much.

That's all I wanted to say about this.

[gnappi]

I never read Ruger saying "Ruger only loads" either. It's AFAIK only in reloading data.

[contender]

Points well taken.

Casting vs forged has been a debate ever since Ruger started making a dent into other gun companies pocketbooks. Bill was "the new kid on the block" and proved his success over the decades. I too recall the "publicity battle" between S&W & Ruger about the beefier frame issue & I have a few copies of the ad with the burger in my stuff. Basically, S&W has lost a lot of business to Ruger over the decades & there's very little love lost between them.
Both companies have their pluses & minuses.

As for "Ruger only " loads,, a few thoughts. No,, Ruger doesn't advertise the use of any ammo other than factory ammo. It's a liability thing. The Ruger/TC only stuff appears in handloading manuals,, due to the fact it's well known that both brands of firearms are built to tougher standards, or by design stronger. And yes,, in loading manuals,, the Ruger & TC only ammo is usually only for .45 Colt. But if you study the manuals,, you'll see references to several T/C only or Encore, or other specific firearms for info in that caliber. And,, in fact,, it's often very confusing to many about the levels of "Ruger only" loads in certain frames, due to the different frames offered by Ruger. It's pretty well accepted that the Rugers can handle any Colt or older lower powered ammo. When you have the Flat Top mid-framed ones,, there appears a "mid-tier" level of ammo safely usable. Then the full sized Blackhawk is supposed to handle the hottest stuff. And yes,, this is narrowed to the .45 Colt in general. Using pressure testing & SAMMI specs,, is where things are figured out.

.44 magnum is a different caliber,, and factory ammo is almost always more powerful than many older calibers, and loads. I don't have any "Ruger only" loads listed in my manuals for the .44 mag. I do know that a few smaller ammo companies may label their ammo that way,, but since I don't buy factory ammo, I can't attest too much as to what they actually do.

All this is just fun discussion. But it still doesn't go to the heart of your OP. Why aren't the EAA revolvers more popular? I can only guess,, and wonder. But again,, I have very little experience with EAA revolvers.

[1horseman]

All very true. Well,....all except "EAA revolvers" (no such thing). EAA imports a lot of cheap Euro stuff. The revolver in question is made by Weihrauch GmbH that acquired the blueprints and production rights from J.P. Sauer at the time when Sauer acquired SIG, and lost interest in making revolvers, which by many accounts (even on this board) were solidly made six-shooters. That was back in 60s-70s when they were marketed as "Arminius", or "Western Marshal" by importers (Howes and few others). Like I said,....."popularity" might not be the right word (in my defense, English is not my second language....more like third or fourth). They sell good (as evident by the lack of stock at many retailers), but the discussion, long term usage reviews and such are almost non-existent. It would be (for me anyway) interesting to read about other people's experiences with them, what they did to them to customize them.....stuff like that. Paco Kelly's "Wine and Roses" article was nice, but I think he ended up selling his Bounty Hunter. Sarge wrote a nice one too on "Six Gun Journal", but that's it, and without much follow up after number of rounds expended, custom work performed, etc.

Now,....some will say customizing one of these is like "putting a lipstick on a pig", but I happen to like the pig. I like how it shoots first and foremost. I like how it's timed, its bulk, its pleasant recoil with stout loads (well maybe not "pleasant" for my 69 YO shooting hand, but "tolerable" to a point), and the fact that it was made in the same neighborhood I was.

[aciera]

Probably one of the biggest reasons is not many were made. In relation to other models.
There were only about 8,000 Ruger maximums released near 40? Years ago…..and you only find a few articles about them. Most a rehash.
And one would have to know your choice was “pick of the litter” of German revolvers.
The internet is a double edged sword …….lots of info.
But lots more to search through and then decide if it is good info.

Look at the old “45 Colt brass is weak “. A lot of gun writers in the 70s wish they had never written that.

And I don’t mean the Ballon Head cases. The bulge wasn’t weak brass ……just oversized chambers.

Or the articles are obscure. I have 20+ years of Guns magazine on my phone I read when I have a chance. Google won’t find the info there.

My $.02

[1horseman]

Good point.

I wondered about the production numbers myself. Of course, fine people at Weihrauch would not talk about that at all. If one goes to website www.hermann-weihrauch-revolver.de/western-single-action-revolver, one can see what they call WSA, and correctly stating that the barrel is 4 3/4" (it's the same revolver called "Bounty Hunter" Stateside). The importer (and ALL retailers in the US) call it 4 1/2" barrel. So, it's not manufacturer's mistake in stating the barrel length, but the Stateside people handling these revolvers. Weihrauch has plenty of stock of this WSA in Germany (in all calibers, AND with the brass grip frame that they don't want to sell over here), but US retailers struggle to keep them in stock. Their .22LR/.22Mag offering is plentiful in the US stock, but the "serious" calibers are not.

When they blew me off in regards of purchasing the brass GF, I contacted a childhood friend across the border in Austria and asked him to procure this part for me. Unbelievably enough, they told him to provide the serial number of the weapon, purchase receipt, and state why the replacement GF was needed, and they will sell him one. And some think that bureaucracy is bad over here! Since he (my friend) is interested only in hunting weapons (and belongs to a hunting club of course), he doesn't know anyone that owns one of these, so that person could order the GF. He said he will "ask around" (that was over a year ago), but people over there don't like to talk about guns. They all have guns of course, but they use them for hunting (the legal ones) and have plenty of "other kind" for when world wars, or "ethnic cleansing" is on the agenda.

[junkbug]

I have a Hawes Western Marshal in .44 mag, and like it a lot, except for the graying alloy grip frame. I am trying to see how complex it would be to fit a brass grip frame meant for a replica 1860 Army. This would be a longer grip, and I have both grip pieces, and one piece stock; but custom work would be required. Not sure how much.

So, being in a similar situation, that is what I am going to look into.

[aciera]

Mar 24, 2024 15:32:10 GMT -5 junkbug said:

I have a Hawes Western Marshal in .44 mag, and like it a lot, except for the graying alloy grip frame. I am trying to see how complex it would be to fit a brass grip frame meant for a replica 1860 Army. This would be a longer grip, and I have both grip pieces, and one piece stock; but custom work would be required. Not sure how much.

So, being in a similar situation, that is what I am going to look into.

Can it be brass plated???

[1horseman]

In some of my previous posts I described in detail what is involved in fitting 1860 Army GF to this revolver.

I purchased TWO complete grip frames (TG, back strap and one piece wood grips). Since this is kind of work I've never done before, I figured I'll practice on one, and when I (inevitably) screw it up, I'll have another one to make perfect. Now,.....the good news for you "junkbug", .....since Arminius doesn't have a transfer bar, fitting the 1860 frame to it is relatively easy (if one is handy with tools such as Dremel, jewelers files etc.). Revolvers with transfer bars have "elongated" (oval) trigger guards, because the trigger itself sits much further forward in the trigger guard than it sits in Colt SAA (and all other clones without the transfer bar). The reason for that is that the "extra" movement in the trigger is needed to lift the transfer bar high enough to cover the frame mounted firing pin. Before I realized that, I went to work on the 1860 GF. I was going slow and managed to make it perfect on the first try! It looked beautiful. Then I realized that the trigger is too forward in the trigger guard, and I have to carefully (thoughtfully/consciously) insert my trigger finger just right (not an instinctive action). Not enough room for my finger, and I don't have fat fingers! On your Arminius you will not have that problem, because the trigger sits far back in the trigger guard with very little movement needed to trip the sear. If you look at the trigger guard of your revolver, and compare it with 1860 trigger guard, you will see that they are similar in shape (almost perfectly round), and the Bounty hunter trigger guard is oval (to the point that it's flat on the bottom). I also commented (jokingly) in some other posts that these transfer bar equipped revolvers are incorrectly called "single action", when in fact, their triggers perform TWO actions (lifting the transfer bar and releasing the hammer).

And for you "junkbug" I'll repeat what I settled with (for now). My GF started to shed its anodizing almost on the first cylinder fired. It was wearing off while I dry fired it to smooth the action after polishing, and the spring replacement. My first reaction was to strip it and paint it with Appliance Epoxy (baked in the oven at 400F for an hour). This paint when properly applied and baked produces the finish identical to the original HK finish on G3, MP5, etc. That started to wear while I fired the next box of ammo. Then I tried to cold blue it. To my astonishment, the material was taking the blue, but it produced crappy, dull finish that didn't look good on the gun at all. Then I proceeded to strip that, pulled out the files, sandpaper, and steel wool! At this point I decided to remove two circular casting marks on the trigger guard as well (they were both at the points where oval TG meets the bottom strap). It worked. This ZAMAK material can be polished to a mirror shine, but it doesn't look good on the gun. I dulled it with steel wool, and it looks now like S&W stainless steel (just like my 66). It tarnishes ("dulls" would be a better word.....it doesn't get black/gray or anything) with usage if it's not wiped down with silicone cloth after use. I wipe all my weapons with it, after handling them anyway. Grip frame finished like this goes well with the shiny hammer, and in one of my previous posts somebody helped me inserting the pics of the said result so you can see it if you care.

I would still LOVE to fit it with the brass GF, but unless my buddies in Austria and Germany can procure one.........

Forgot to add....I asked Weihrauch about plating; I called THREE American companies to ask them if they can plate ZAMAK....no answer. Instead of plating it with brass (which tarnishes and wears off) I would plate it with gold. All three American plating companies never returned my calls/messages, and Weihrauch people flatly said "trade secret". How's that for being snotty and uptight?

[revolvercranker]

One of the revolvers I have Pietta 1860 Colt and I wouldn't say it was small. It's fantastic and very accurate.

[bigbore5]

You don't really want gold plate. It scratches too easily. Consider titanium nitride. It's a common material, polishes up to look like gold or brass, doesn't tarnish, plus it's tough enough they use it electro plated on drill bits to make them last longer.

[junkbug]

I will look for your earlier posts. Thanks

[1horseman]

Mar 24, 2024 18:42:09 GMT -5 bigbore5 said:

You don't really want gold plate. It scratches too easily. Consider titanium nitride. It's a common material, polishes up to look like gold or brass, doesn't tarnish, plus it's tough enough they use it electro plated on drill bits to make them last longer.

Winner, winner. Now if you can tell me who can do it for me in some reasonable time (not months/years of waiting), I'll buy you a bottle of 25YO single malt.