edk
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454?
Jun 3, 2010 14:03:07 GMT -5
Post by edk on Jun 3, 2010 14:03:07 GMT -5
A lot of comments about no need for the rated pressure of the 454... Let me ask: Is everyone loading their 475 to its' rated 50Kpsi? A quick look at 475 data on Linebaugh's site lists a 400gr LFN traveling 1500fps. It's nice to know I could load to that level but I generally do not want to. When many say "454" the 65Kpsi limit is implicit for all loads which is too bad. edit: I haven't been around these big bores 20 or more years as many of you have. The earlier reference to Ross Seyfried caught my interest so I went nosing around and found this: "I do not use the .454 Casull. Many will want some explanation surrounding my disregard for the .454. Basically it is not necessary. That is, the .45 Colt can do virtually anything the .454 can do. This is because large-bore revolver performance is a function of cylinder capacity, not case length. The short cylinders in the Freedom revolvers actually have less capacity than a long, custom Ruger cylinder. Other revolvers with full-length cylinders chambered for the .454 Casull have the same capacity as, not more than, the .45s. The long cases are really only added expense. The only real excuse for owning a .454 is to be able to say the cartridges will not fit in a .45 Colt chamber."article: www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?tocid=321&magid=24So to be clear Ross is not comparing a stock Ruger six-shooter but rather a five shot, over-sized cylinder 45 Colt from a custom maker. And yes we are sure he is not referring to a stock Ruger when in that same article he mentions how 45 Colt cases hold up fine at 50,000 CUP. Now think about this (not Ross' literal quote - I played with it): The long cases are really only added expense. The only real excuse for owning a .454.475 is to be able to say the cartridges will not fit in a .45 Colt.480 Ruger chamber.Same argument isn't it? I'm not saying I agree or disagree. It is an attempt to demonstrate how the 454 is often labeled a one-trick pony and my argument is simply to point out it is more flexible than most give it credit for.
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454?
Jun 3, 2010 14:46:40 GMT -5
Post by bigbores on Jun 3, 2010 14:46:40 GMT -5
"Is everyone loading their 475 to its' rated 50Kpsi?" I can't speak for everyone but 15 years ago before I knew any better I would load my 475 up with loads that would pierce a primer every now and again. Now all my loads are backed way down and when ever I compare the 454 to the 475, 475 to the 500s or even .500s to the .510s pressure is one thing I think about, less pressure being better as long as it gets the job done. so when the 454 is talked about pressure is what I think of.
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454?
Jun 3, 2010 17:40:27 GMT -5
Post by taffin on Jun 3, 2010 17:40:27 GMT -5
"I do not use the .454 Casull. Many will want some explanation surrounding my disregard for the .454. Basically it is not necessary. That is, the .45 Colt can do virtually anything the .454 can do. This is because large-bore revolver performance is a function of cylinder capacity, not case length. The short cylinders in the Freedom revolvers actually have less capacity than a long, custom Ruger cylinder. Other revolvers with full-length cylinders chambered for the .454 Casull have the same capacity as, not more than, the .45s. The long cases are really only added expense. The only real excuse for owning a .454 is to be able to say the cartridges will not fit in a .45 Colt chamber."
THE .454 STARTED LIFE AS A HOT-LOADED .45 COLT. THE ONLY REASON FOR THE LONGER .454 WAS TO PREVENT LOADS FROM WINDING UP IN .45s THAT WOULD NOT TAKE THE PRESSURE DEVELOPED.
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rigby
.327 Meteor
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454?
Jun 3, 2010 18:45:47 GMT -5
Post by rigby on Jun 3, 2010 18:45:47 GMT -5
Not if you look at the time in which it was written. 454 brass was not as readily (cost comparatively) available as the 475 is now. IIRC 454 was only available at the time from Freedom Arms and it was very expensive.My point about Ross was two fold, one he pointed out the performance of the 5 shot 45 with heavy bullets compared to the 454 and its cheaper brass. He beat this drum in more then a few of his articles. He was also at the fore front of the big bore parade having wrote one of the first, if not the first article about the 500 Linebaugh. Which as Axe pointed out left some wanting more then the 454. While Ross obviously didnt kill the 454 I still feel he pointed many in other directions. He did take away from its popularity by at least 1. ;D
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edk
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454?
Jun 3, 2010 21:46:33 GMT -5
Post by edk on Jun 3, 2010 21:46:33 GMT -5
I find this thread interesting. Why? It is not really because the discussion consists of a fundamental disagreement among those posting. Rather many I think are in agreement and just don't recognize it. Whether it is my inability to communicate my own thoughts clearly enough or those not reading carefully I don't know - I'll accept the blame. Take for instance another recent thread where the individual starting the thread asks "what is the least uncomfortable 44 mag handgun to shoot?" I got a chuckle when a number replied it was the S&W 329PD. Obviously these guys are either better men than I or not good readers... Well, I'm not trying to argue the virtues of the 454. I do however find it strange for the 454 to get shot down over attributes that are not objected to with other cartridges. Take for instance the extra 0.1" of case length. I well realize it is not needed for powder capacity in the 454. Yet the 475 has the same length case and it was not because of a need to keep some distance from an old blackpowder standard. I don't hear of complaints - why not? There is always the issue of pressure. It seems most pet loads these days consist of a Keith or LBT heavy-for-caliber cast bullet at not much more than 1200-1300fps - sometimes as low as 1000fps and this is regardless of caliber. Now the 454 gets slammed for its' high pressure 300gr/1626fps loadings. As I previously mentioned Linebaugh's site lists a 400gr LFN traveling 1500fps. Each one of those is several hundred fps more than what has been determined to be a sweet spot of penetration & stopping power though the 454 gets called on it. Hey, I'll admit a 45 Colt will do anything I need. I really only have a FA 454 because it was significantly more affordable than going the custom 5-shot route however I'm certain I could be happy with one. Now what have I done? Made the argument for getting rid of my 475 for a 480
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454?
Jun 3, 2010 21:47:27 GMT -5
Post by bigbores on Jun 3, 2010 21:47:27 GMT -5
While we are taking about the 454 and Ross Seyfried I find it funny not being able to recall if Ross ever did a right-up on Freedom arms or there model 83, kinda makes me wonder if Ross and Dick didn't see eye to eye?
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rigby
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454?
Jun 4, 2010 4:24:26 GMT -5
Post by rigby on Jun 4, 2010 4:24:26 GMT -5
I dont think so, he always spoke highly of the FA. He just felt the FA cylinder length was better served with the 45 colt.
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buck
.30 Stingray
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454?
Jun 4, 2010 5:13:26 GMT -5
Post by buck on Jun 4, 2010 5:13:26 GMT -5
... Take for instance the extra 0.1" of case length. I well realize it is not needed for powder capacity in the 454. ... Without it I can just imagine some aspiring Darwin award winner loading up his N frame hand grenade.
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rigby
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454?
Jun 4, 2010 5:58:02 GMT -5
Post by rigby on Jun 4, 2010 5:58:02 GMT -5
There is no +.1 for the 475 because it came before the 480. So if anything its -.1 for the 480.
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edk
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454?
Jun 4, 2010 5:59:29 GMT -5
Post by edk on Jun 4, 2010 5:59:29 GMT -5
Grenade? What's a 50Kpsi five-shot 45 Colt round? It has everything but the pin ;D
edit: (rigby posted at nearly the same time) I' understand the 475 came first and that is the point of bringing it up: in the 454 the length is considered a waste - in the 475 it is there by choice.
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jwp475
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454?
Jun 4, 2010 9:26:02 GMT -5
Post by jwp475 on Jun 4, 2010 9:26:02 GMT -5
Grenade? What's a 50Kpsi five-shot 45 Colt round? It has everything but the pin ;D edit: (rigby posted at nearly the same time) I' understand the 475 came first and that is the point of bringing it up: in the 454 the length is considered a waste - in the 475 it is there by choice. The 475 was designed for a custom cylinder that is longer than the Freedom M-83 therfore can acctualy utilize the .1" case length. the Freedom M-83 can not
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454?
Jun 4, 2010 9:36:52 GMT -5
Post by AxeHandle on Jun 4, 2010 9:36:52 GMT -5
Sounding more and more to me like we all need either 480 cylinders for our FA 475s or custom 475 Rugers! Guess the best answer is both! Don't think I've ever read the cylinder length limitation of the FA 475... I cast 345, 370, and 420 grain 475 bullets and have never noted a OAL problem with my FA 475s...
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razor
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454?
Jun 4, 2010 10:52:47 GMT -5
Post by razor on Jun 4, 2010 10:52:47 GMT -5
Hey, I think my Dodge is better than your Ford. My Ford is better than your Chevrolet.
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454?
Jun 4, 2010 11:18:58 GMT -5
Post by bigbores on Jun 4, 2010 11:18:58 GMT -5
Grenade? What's a 50Kpsi five-shot 45 Colt round? It has everything but the pin ;D edit: (rigby posted at nearly the same time) I' understand the 475 came first and that is the point of bringing it up: in the 454 the length is considered a waste - in the 475 it is there by choice. The 475 was designed for a custom cylinder that is longer than the Freedom M-83 therfore can acctualy utilize the .1" case length. the Freedom M-83 can not jwp475, So what your saying is the Freedom arms short cylinder is holding back the power of the older .475Linebaugh round by limiting its OAL? If that's your point its time to order Ross's 500S&W because it will take a 2.25" OAL. I have 2 Ruger customs and one Model 83 in the .475Linebaugh and I can tell you the 83 can more than holds its own with top end loads, not that top end loads are really ever needed in this chambering.
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jwp475
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454?
Jun 4, 2010 12:38:55 GMT -5
Post by jwp475 on Jun 4, 2010 12:38:55 GMT -5
\ The cylinder length is shorter than any of my customs made on a Ruger frame. The original 475 case was 1.4" made from 45-70 brass. The current factroy 475 brass amd factory loads are a bit shorter due the the M-83 Freedoms cylinder length. The new brass is much better than the 45-70 brass.
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