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Post by kings6 on Sept 29, 2023 22:38:51 GMT -5
I take a heat gun to them and off htey pop!
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Post by northerngos on Oct 5, 2023 20:38:54 GMT -5
Ovate or shouldered rib.   I know you’ve had a bunch of builds from the masters, any evidence an ovate barrel gives a little choke at the muzzle from a little spring back after rifling where the extra meat is, similar to a banded barrel? And how is heft/balance vs some of the other types? I am waiting on a Bowen 45 octagon build, but really went back and forth over a sw 1955 target barrel (have one from you in trade). It’s still on the list, as is ovate. Thinking sw 32/327/32-20 and ovate in 500 linebaugh, from Bowen. After I find a buyer for my extra kidney… |
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Post by kings6 on Oct 5, 2023 20:41:37 GMT -5
I have not seen any adverse effect on the ovate shape but I do like the weight of the barrel being slightly heavier than normal round barrels.
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Odin
.375 Atomic
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Post by Odin on Oct 6, 2023 6:17:21 GMT -5
...any evidence an ovate barrel gives a little choke at the muzzle from a little spring back after rifling where the extra meat is, similar to a banded barrel? Is this actually a documented occurrence? I'm having a really hard time understanding how thread choke at the muzzle would actually exist. Unlike choke at the barrel/frame juncture, where excess pressure is present because the barrel has essentially been screwed down too tight, at the muzzle end there is absolutely nothing applying pressure on the barrel. Taking Bowen as an example (because he's documented the process in his book and it's easy to see the various forms in his online catalog) most every shape is carved from a 2.5-inch piece of pre-rifled stock that itself has been cut from a 3-foot long chunk of barrel stock. Banded, ovate, octagon, SP, Smith rib, they're all made the same. Even with a slip fit barrel band, I've always thought it was just that - slip fit and solder. Maybe it's always been an arbor press and a prayer holding those things on. Somebody help me out here! |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2023 6:55:53 GMT -5
My barrel band Rugers have turned barrels. Started off as large diameter blanks. Nothing is done inside the bore. Mine shoot great. My Clements banded blackhawk and John Powers banded vaquero may be my most accurate Rugers.
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Post by northerngos on Oct 6, 2023 13:09:03 GMT -5
...any evidence an ovate barrel gives a little choke at the muzzle from a little spring back after rifling where the extra meat is, similar to a banded barrel? Is this actually a documented occurrence? I'm having a really hard time understanding how thread choke at the muzzle would actually exist. Unlike choke at the barrel/frame juncture, where excess pressure is present because the barrel has essentially been screwed down too tight, at the muzzle end there is absolutely nothing applying pressure on the barrel. Taking Bowen as an example (because he's documented the process in his book and it's easy to see the various forms in his online catalog) most every shape is carved from a 2.5-inch piece of pre-rifled stock that itself has been cut from a 3-foot long chunk of barrel stock. Banded, ovate, octagon, SP, Smith rib, they're all made the same. Even with a slip fit barrel band, I've always thought it was just that - slip fit and solder. Maybe it's always been an arbor press and a prayer holding those things on. Somebody help me out here! My apologies you are of course correct. I had it wrong, Bowen said that there may be some muzzle choke in his banded barrels, it was related to thickness difference but may be from slight spring back from where more material was lathed off? I’ll ask next time I talk to him about my project. He may have discussed it in the hhi podcast too? I know on the podcast he mentioned that one thing that made the Seyfried no 13 so crazy accurate may be that he soldered the sleeved barrel at the muzzle, in any case that gun did have measured muzzle choke. I am unsure how often it may happen with his nimrod barrels and can’t remember actual numbers but for him to say it can happen he must have measured it at some point. I do realize and agree that that isn’t as solid as true regimented analysis to document rate of occurrence. My nimrod that he built is certainly a shooter but I haven’t gauged from the forcing cone only the muzzle, so could just be from line boring and tight lockup? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2023 15:16:55 GMT -5
Is this actually a documented occurrence? I'm having a really hard time understanding how thread choke at the muzzle would actually exist. Unlike choke at the barrel/frame juncture, where excess pressure is present because the barrel has essentially been screwed down too tight, at the muzzle end there is absolutely nothing applying pressure on the barrel. Taking Bowen as an example (because he's documented the process in his book and it's easy to see the various forms in his online catalog) most every shape is carved from a 2.5-inch piece of pre-rifled stock that itself has been cut from a 3-foot long chunk of barrel stock. Banded, ovate, octagon, SP, Smith rib, they're all made the same. Even with a slip fit barrel band, I've always thought it was just that - slip fit and solder. Maybe it's always been an arbor press and a prayer holding those things on. Somebody help me out here! My apologies you are of course correct. I had it wrong, Bowen said that there may be some muzzle choke in his banded barrels, it was related to thickness difference but may be from slight spring back from where more material was lathed off? I’ll ask next time I talk to him about my project. He may have discussed it in the hhi podcast too? I know on the podcast he mentioned that one thing that made the Seyfried no 13 so crazy accurate may be that he soldered the sleeved barrel at the muzzle, in any case that gun did have measured muzzle choke. I am unsure how often it may happen with his nimrod barrels and can’t remember actual numbers but for him to say it can happen he must have measured it at some point. I do realize and agree that that isn’t as solid as true regimented analysis to document rate of occurrence. My nimrod that he built is certainly a shooter but I haven’t gauged from the forcing cone only the muzzle, so could just be from line boring and tight lockup? Are you referring to taper, related to contour? The Seyfried gun looks to taper for sure on the outside but the bore is not. It would make no sense to taper the bore for a specifically sized projectile. Maybe his paradox builds had some bore taper because of their use as a shot barrel? |
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Post by bushog on Oct 6, 2023 15:33:05 GMT -5
My apologies you are of course correct. I had it wrong, Bowen said that there may be some muzzle choke in his banded barrels, it was related to thickness difference but may be from slight spring back from where more material was lathed off? I’ll ask next time I talk to him about my project. He may have discussed it in the hhi podcast too? I know on the podcast he mentioned that one thing that made the Seyfried no 13 so crazy accurate may be that he soldered the sleeved barrel at the muzzle, in any case that gun did have measured muzzle choke. I am unsure how often it may happen with his nimrod barrels and can’t remember actual numbers but for him to say it can happen he must have measured it at some point. I do realize and agree that that isn’t as solid as true regimented analysis to document rate of occurrence. My nimrod that he built is certainly a shooter but I haven’t gauged from the forcing cone only the muzzle, so could just be from line boring and tight lockup? Are you referring to taper, related to contour? The Seyfried gun looks to taper for sure on the outside but the bore is not. It would make no sense to taper the bore for a specifically sized projectile. Maybe his paradox builds had some bore taper because of their use as a shot barrel? Muzzle choke isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Colt double action barrels are known for it and the accuracy that results. Now, thread choke at the receiver is a different story. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2023 16:27:06 GMT -5
I think we can agree that lots of stuff works pretty well that we are convinced will not. The great gunsmiths understand it and im better off letting them get me something that works. I apologize if i give questionable info. Im trying to understand and then once I feel like I do, something changes my assumptions.
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Post by northerngos on Oct 8, 2023 1:04:29 GMT -5
I think we can agree that lots of stuff works pretty well that we are convinced will not. The great gunsmiths understand it and im better off letting them get me something that works. I apologize if i give questionable info. Im trying to understand and then once I feel like I do, something changes my assumptions. I think I accidentally did a bit of a hijack here so I won’t pursue it further but to put a pin in it: I don’t think anyone is taking anything you’ve said as questionable info, it’s just an open discussion  Seyfried wrote about ideal taper for a bore when he had Bowen build him the revolver that shot 1” groups on occasion at 100 yards. For a 45 colt he liked cylinder throats .0005” larger than the bullet, then breech end of the barrel .0005” smaller than the bullet, then the muzzle .0005” smaller than the breech end. This created the optimum accuracy potential, in his mind at the time of his writing. I am not sure if he changed his mind later. Fine pellet gun makers often make a barrel with slight choke at the muzzle as well, and these guns can be insanely accurate. sorry for the diversion! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2023 23:55:00 GMT -5
Seems like a tapered bore is either accidental, faulty tooling, or somehow a star wars merlin wizard kind of thing.
From Chapter 3 of Bowens book.
The one exception to this otherwise hard and fast rule is when barrels are choked at the muzzle. Whether a muzzle choke occurs by accident or design, it is a wonderful thing and almost always produces accuracy superior to what would otherwise occur. Minor bullet imperfections tend to be minimized by chokes or taper-bored barrels. Unfortunately, manufacturing technology to produce barrels with choked muzzles does not exist. The gunsmith can use hand-lapping to produce a choked muzzle, but it’s a somewhat laborious, mysterious process best left to the Merlins familiar with its dark secrets.
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Post by bigbore5 on Oct 9, 2023 3:33:58 GMT -5
To be contrary, the technology does exist, but would be cost prohibitive.
Tapered anvils for hammer forging would require specific tooling for each barrel length. EDM machining could do it. As could optical wire lazers. But who would pay that much for the marginal possibility of a slight gain?
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COR
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Post by COR on Oct 16, 2023 7:21:15 GMT -5
But who would pay that much for the marginal possibility of a slight gain? Well…. I can name a handful of these driven souls, a few of which posted on this thread already… lol Most all the modifications on these short guns come with gains equivalent to angels dancing on pin heads… most accuracy gains are quickly lost once a human gets behind them. As for the aesthetics, that’s not for debate, it’s personal preference and I’ve found my own tastes “evolve” with time… |
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Post by bigbore5 on Oct 16, 2023 7:23:57 GMT -5
But who would pay that much for the marginal possibility of a slight gain? Well…. I can name a handful of these driven souls, a few of which posted on this thread already… lol Most all the modifications on these short guns come with gains equivalent to angels dancing on pin heads… most accuracy gains are quickly lost once a human gets behind them. As for the aesthetics, that’s not for debate, it’s personal preference and I’ve found my own tastes “evolve” with time… I wasn't clear. I meant what barrel manufacturer. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2023 12:43:29 GMT -5
On the Shortgun Sportsman podcast Hamilton Bowen discusses that he believes the Nimrod barrels have a little bit of choke at the muzzle because of the tension of leaving the end thicker for the band. Hearing him discuss this, it made sense. He said his nimrods in 45 colt are probably his most accurate builds.
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Seyfried wrote about ideal taper for a bore when he had Bowen build him the revolver that shot 1” groups on occasion at 100 yards. For a 45 colt he liked cylinder throats .0005” larger than the bullet, then breech end of the barrel .0005” smaller than the bullet, then the muzzle .0005” smaller than the breech end. This created the optimum accuracy potential, in his mind at the time of his writing. I am not sure if he changed his mind later. Fine pellet gun makers often make a barrel with slight choke at the muzzle as well, and these guns can be insanely accurate.