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Post by AxeHandle on Sept 23, 2020 13:14:14 GMT -5
Posting a DW Vigil on the Hi Jack thread right now.....
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Aggie01
.375 Atomic
max
Posts: 1,770
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Post by Aggie01 on Sept 23, 2020 14:09:17 GMT -5
I have my ultimate (until the next ultimate) 1911 frame sitting at the house. An aluminum JEM commander frame with an EGW steel feed ramp, and the frame is cut for the included Stan Chen Magwell. I think I'm into just the frame and magwell for $1K. Not sure if I'm going to hire it out, or build it up myself.
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Post by squawberryman on Sept 23, 2020 16:12:52 GMT -5
One might think for the money that Vickers is a lot of gun.
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Post by maxcactus on Sept 23, 2020 16:43:33 GMT -5
I hadn't seen that previously, but it looks like one HECK of a bargain, thank you, Axe!! I'm actually going to see if I can pick one of those up. Nice fit and finish on that DW Wraith. rangersedge, I've spent quite a bit of time on Volkman's site. While his work is unquestionably marvelous, the fact that each piece is bespoke and built entirely by the hands of one man is reflected in the price. I'm sure they're worth it, but I can't justify carrying, using and abusing a $5000 tool as a hard use daily driver. I really appreciate all the help you fellas are providing. I may end up with two - one reasonable/middle of the road and one high end full custom.
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Post by cundiff5535 on Sept 23, 2020 17:24:12 GMT -5
I might as well jump in here... Ill spare you my entire journey and just say this. Ive owned 1911's that cost $500 bucks, And I have 1911's that cost $10K. I really do feel like I am well versed on this topic and will leave you with this...
1. At roughly what price would you separate "standard" mass produced 1911s from "premium" manufactured 1911s? $1000? $1500? $1800? More?
- I personally separate most guns out at $3K... $1500 or less is going to get you into a top of the line production gun (IE DW Valor). $1800-4K will get you into a gently used semi-custom or low end custom. $5K-$15K plus about 5-12 years on a wait list will get you into a current full blown masters shop
2. At what prince point do you feel diminishing returns start setting in? I know this is subjective, so I'm asking for your opinion. Where do you feel real benefits start dropping off and a customer starts paying for bling or bells and whistles that do little to improve performance? I'd love to have a Jason Burton Heirloom Precision, but I want a hard use tool that won't suffer massive depreciation due to range use, carry, etc.
- IMO There is no such thing as diminishing returns... at least from a performance stand point. Most people have no idea about internals and actual barrel fit, so they wouldnt quit get it... and Im not getting into it in this post. If you are asking about diminished returns in terms on resale, well totally different story. We can talk about that in another post as well. I would toss this whole concept out the window as I would gladly pay 8K for something that was proven and perfect vs 2K for what the masses perceived as perfect.
3. Given a budget of between $1500-2300, which 1911 in your opinion do you feel offers the best value for your $$ and which would you choose for a serious SD tool? I'm thinking perhaps a Les Baer Concept IV (sorry Axehandle!) or a Dan Wesson Valor or Specialist. The Specialist has a light rail. Not sure how I feel about that yet as new holsters would be necessary, etc.
- Given your budget here is your list: Dan Wesson Valor Les Baer PII Ed Brown Kobra (used) Wilson CQB (used) NH (used) Crafter No Name (used
I personally would 100% skip all these and save a bit more and call Dave Laubert at Defensive Creations... Send him your Mi-Spec and tell him to rework the gun entirely to your standard. You will get back a masterpiece that will be far better than any of the guns listed above.
If not, just get for the money, get the DW Valor and you will be semi happy:)
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Post by maxcactus on Sept 23, 2020 18:49:30 GMT -5
I might as well jump in here... Ill spare you my entire journey and just say this. Ive owned 1911's that cost $500 bucks, And I have 1911's that cost $10K. I really do feel like I am well versed on this topic and will leave you with this... 1. At roughly what price would you separate "standard" mass produced 1911s from "premium" manufactured 1911s? $1000? $1500? $1800? More? - I personally separate most guns out at $3K... $1500 or less is going to get you into a top of the line production gun (IE DW Valor). $1800-4K will get you into a gently used semi-custom or low end custom. $5K-$15K plus about 5-12 years on a wait list will get you into a current full blown masters shop 2. At what prince point do you feel diminishing returns start setting in? I know this is subjective, so I'm asking for your opinion. Where do you feel real benefits start dropping off and a customer starts paying for bling or bells and whistles that do little to improve performance? I'd love to have a Jason Burton Heirloom Precision, but I want a hard use tool that won't suffer massive depreciation due to range use, carry, etc. - IMO There is no such thing as diminishing returns... at least from a performance stand point. Most people have no idea about internals and actual barrel fit, so they wouldnt quit get it... and Im not getting into it in this post. If you are asking about diminished returns in terms on resale, well totally different story. We can talk about that in another post as well. I would toss this whole concept out the window as I would gladly pay 8K for something that was proven and perfect vs 2K for what the masses perceived as perfect. 3. Given a budget of between $1500-2300, which 1911 in your opinion do you feel offers the best value for your $$ and which would you choose for a serious SD tool? I'm thinking perhaps a Les Baer Concept IV (sorry Axehandle!) or a Dan Wesson Valor or Specialist. The Specialist has a light rail. Not sure how I feel about that yet as new holsters would be necessary, etc. - Given your budget here is your list: Dan Wesson Valor Les Baer PII Ed Brown Kobra (used) Wilson CQB (used) NH (used) Crafter No Name (used I personally would 100% skip all these and save a bit more and call Dave Laubert at Defensive Creations... Send him your Mi-Spec and tell him to rework the gun entirely to your standard. You will get back a masterpiece that will be far better than any of the guns listed above. If not, just get for the money, get the DW Valor and you will be semi happy:) Huge thanks, Cundiff, that was extremely informative. I am quite familiar with the internal workings of the 1911 and how parts are precision fitted and interact with one another - including the barrel, slide, bushing, etc. Re: diminishing returns, I'm mostly referring to $$ invested in a tool that are strictly or mostly cosmetic. If a $5000 hand fitted 1911 is distinctly superior to say a Les Baer in performance, reliability, longevty, fit and finish, I'm good spending the additional $$, but what does that additional $3K buy me? If it's just high polished, serrated and checkered this n that, plus fancy metal removal for no reason other than "wow" factor, I'll pass. I guess I've been jaded by a lot of the over-the-top "custom" modifications I've seen done to Glocks lately. Guys send their guns off for crazy cosmetic modifications including skeletonized slides, but almost nothing is done to actually improve the performance of the stock tool. I know custom 1911s are NOT like BLINGED out Glocks, but I want to be in the complete opposite camp. I want genuine performance improvements done to the tool but only basic aesthetic modifications. I'm okay with plain looking, as long as the tool is solid and reliable. Is a dead solid tool not available for under $5K? I would hope so. What does a $5K 1911 give me that a $2K 1911 doesn't? It looks like I've got a lot more reading to do.
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awp101
.401 Bobcat
TANSTAAFL
Posts: 2,645
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Post by awp101 on Sept 23, 2020 19:13:18 GMT -5
I want genuine performance improvements done to the tool but only basic aesthetic modifications. I'm okay with plain looking, as long as the tool is solid and reliable. Maybe check out Joe Chambers and his Working Man's Gun (WMG). They're supposed to be all go and minimal show.
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Post by cundiff5535 on Sept 23, 2020 19:35:14 GMT -5
I might as well jump in here... Ill spare you my entire journey and just say this. Ive owned 1911's that cost $500 bucks, And I have 1911's that cost $10K. I really do feel like I am well versed on this topic and will leave you with this... 1. At roughly what price would you separate "standard" mass produced 1911s from "premium" manufactured 1911s? $1000? $1500? $1800? More? - I personally separate most guns out at $3K... $1500 or less is going to get you into a top of the line production gun (IE DW Valor). $1800-4K will get you into a gently used semi-custom or low end custom. $5K-$15K plus about 5-12 years on a wait list will get you into a current full blown masters shop 2. At what prince point do you feel diminishing returns start setting in? I know this is subjective, so I'm asking for your opinion. Where do you feel real benefits start dropping off and a customer starts paying for bling or bells and whistles that do little to improve performance? I'd love to have a Jason Burton Heirloom Precision, but I want a hard use tool that won't suffer massive depreciation due to range use, carry, etc. - IMO There is no such thing as diminishing returns... at least from a performance stand point. Most people have no idea about internals and actual barrel fit, so they wouldnt quit get it... and Im not getting into it in this post. If you are asking about diminished returns in terms on resale, well totally different story. We can talk about that in another post as well. I would toss this whole concept out the window as I would gladly pay 8K for something that was proven and perfect vs 2K for what the masses perceived as perfect. 3. Given a budget of between $1500-2300, which 1911 in your opinion do you feel offers the best value for your $$ and which would you choose for a serious SD tool? I'm thinking perhaps a Les Baer Concept IV (sorry Axehandle!) or a Dan Wesson Valor or Specialist. The Specialist has a light rail. Not sure how I feel about that yet as new holsters would be necessary, etc. - Given your budget here is your list: Dan Wesson Valor Les Baer PII Ed Brown Kobra (used) Wilson CQB (used) NH (used) Crafter No Name (used I personally would 100% skip all these and save a bit more and call Dave Laubert at Defensive Creations... Send him your Mi-Spec and tell him to rework the gun entirely to your standard. You will get back a masterpiece that will be far better than any of the guns listed above. If not, just get for the money, get the DW Valor and you will be semi happy:) Huge thanks, Cundiff, that was extremely informative. I am quite familiar with the internal workings of the 1911 and how parts are precision fitted and interact with one another - including the barrel, slide, bushing, etc. Re: diminishing returns, I'm mostly referring to $$ invested in a tool that are strictly or mostly cosmetic. If a $5000 hand fitted 1911 is distinctly superior to say a Les Baer in performance, reliability, longevty, fit and finish, I'm good spending the additional $$, but what does that additional $3K buy me? If it's just high polished, serrated and checkered this n that, plus fancy metal removal for no reason other than "wow" factor, I'll pass. I guess I've been jaded by a lot of the over-the-top "custom" modifications I've seen done to Glocks lately. Guys send their guns off for crazy cosmetic modifications including skeletonized slides, but almost nothing is done to actually improve the performance of the stock tool. I know custom 1911s are NOT like BLINGED out Glocks, but I want to be in the complete opposite camp. I want genuine performance improvements done to the tool but only basic aesthetic modifications. I'm okay with plain looking, as long as the tool is solid and reliable. Is a dead solid tool not available for under $5K? I would hope so. What does a $5K 1911 give me that a $2K 1911 doesn't? It looks like I've got a lot more reading to do. Here is the long and short of my experience... nearly every single 1911 I have owned over the years fail to properly achieve "barrel fit" perfection. IMO This is the soul of the gun. I say this, because there is a lot more than leg fit that goes into a barrel fit, proper chamber finish reaming and polishing, bushing fit, link fit, hood fit all play into that "soul of the build" if you will. But, the barrel leg fit is, in my opinion, the one thing that separates a lot of guns because you either have it or you don't. As my friend Joe Chambers says: "Generally speaking 50% contact on both legs with zero barrel bump (that's when the slide stop bumps the front of the barrel legs as the barrel is going back into battery) is considered adequate. And I personally know of several guns with fit in that range that have won numerous championships at Perry. However, the more you have, the better it is, within reason. Keep in mind that a "Hard Fit" is not the same as a proper fit (again, in my opinion) as it causes the slide stop to wear out quickly thus loosing the leg fit along the way. If you have flat spots on the top of your slide stop pin from a "hard fit" barrel the fit simply will not last long." Simply said, I have not seen ANY (NOT ONE) production gun have this. I have seen very, very few semi custom guns have this, and I have seen several full blown custom guns that did not have it. IMO once you get to the semi-custom level of gun, blending, fit, all the "look at me goodies" are there... what separate the real performers is the barrel fit. I have often been a fan of Baer because he "hard fits" his barrels... but his performance fades past 5K rounds... Guys like Rob who work at Alchemy custom (who also ran the performance center/SA Custom shop) will tell you thats not true... but in my personal experience with hard fit gun, its a 100% accurate statement. Many, many smiths will tell you they fit a barrel properly... but ask yourself this question, how many people even know how to check for barrel fit at the legs to slide stop and see the amount of barrel bump they are getting? My bet would be like 1%. Because many companies know this, and many shops know this, they literally cut the legs and roll... so you are paying BIG dollars for something that isnt done properly. A lot of people will argue, that there are many ways to fit a barrel properly... there is no one way magic answer... They will also claim that 90% of the shooters and 1911 owners will never know the difference because they are not good enough shooters to know. I for one have a MAJOR issue with this approach to building guns. It's also why I trust very few companies or smiths. Over the last few years, I have heard this new approach of “I build fighting guns that run“! It's total horse crap. I will ask it ok to build a gun with short cuts knowing the majority of the people buying them will never know there is a problem? Is it ok to do something incorrectly knowing most people will never know they are not getting maximum performance out of the platform? Is it ok to do this because most people just accept it? I 100% believe these guns can be and are very reliable! They are actually more accurate than many many shooters, but, how reliable, and how accurate at 25 yards compared to a gun that has a proper barrel fit? When these Smiths go on about “fighting gun” or any of the other non sense stuff being marketed to real shooters, buyer beware. Ill leave this post with two thoughts... None of the production guns mentioned are going to have proper barrel fit. It's just a fact, the amount of time and labor t takes to achieve make it impossible for production guns to reach this level. The semi-custom guns... will have some fit but barrel bump as well. The Baer is going to be hard fit so you will eventually lose performance over time. I am confident that a Laubert gun will be built properly (see the MR73 post I made in regard to his revo skills)! If you tell Dave your expectations around fit, performance, and barrel fit, it will get done right (or at least from my experience it will). The other name Ill toss out is a Chambers Custom WMG. I 100% guaranty that guns is built to perfection. Joe absolutely will not have something leave his shop until ultimate performance is met and all details around it are 1000% proper. The beauty of his "working mans gun" is its a no frills, all business gun. Its probably a bit more than what you mentioned in terms of cost... but I can say that the gun will be perfection when its done... and, if you ever needed to sell it/recoup money on it... one call to Joe and another client will buy it in under a week for damn near what you paid for it. If anyone here is curious about barrel fit and seeing how well your guns barrel is fit to the gun, it's simple. Take your slide off, clean the oil off the barrel legs, apply marker or dykem to the bearing surface, re-assemble the gun, cycle 25-50 times, take the slide off and look to see if the marker/dykem has disappeared... you are looking for 100% contact at the legs where the barrel and link should gently rest on the slide stop. IMO outside of the blending and finish work, the barrel fit is the thing that completely separates true ethical masters of the platform! Hope this wasnt to long winded and off on a tangent, but people need to start knowing how to check this and what they are looking at... esp when paying big dollars for some of these guns ($3k plus).
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Post by cundiff5535 on Sept 23, 2020 19:37:21 GMT -5
I want genuine performance improvements done to the tool but only basic aesthetic modifications. I'm okay with plain looking, as long as the tool is solid and reliable. Maybe check out Joe Chambers and his Working Man's Gun (WMG). They're supposed to be all go and minimal show. 100000% yes. I would have said this from the start, but the WMG is more than $2300. If you want the right gun, this is the one you should buy. Ill add, the wait to get one will be around a year to a year and a half... so if you call Joe and tell him you want to get on the list for a single stack WMG, you will have plenty of time to save to make up what you are short:)
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Post by maxcactus on Sept 23, 2020 20:11:35 GMT -5
Maybe check out Joe Chambers and his Working Man's Gun (WMG). They're supposed to be all go and minimal show. 100000% yes. I would have said this from the start, but the WMG is more than $2300. If you want the right gun, this is the one you should buy. Ill add, the wait to get one will be around a year to a year and a half... so if you call Joe and tell him you want to get on the list for a single stack WMG, you will have plenty of time to save to make up what you are short:) Cundiff and AWP, THANK YOU! That is extremely helpful and yes, virtually exactly what I want - all GO and minimal SHOW. My budget isn't really set in stone - I just wondered how much I had to spend to get a really serious, reliable, solid tool. If $4300 is what it takes, I'm good with that. I'll just add my name to the list now and I've got another 12-18 months to save for it.
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Post by bradshaw on Sept 23, 2020 20:23:05 GMT -5
“.... If a $5000 hand fitted 1911 is distinctly superior to say a Les Baer in performance, reliability, longevty, fit and finish, I'm good spending the additional $$, but what does that additional $3K buy me?
Is a dead solid tool not available for under $5K? I would hope so. What does a $5K 1911 give me that a $2K 1911 doesn’t?” -----maxcactus
*****
On my mountain bling don’t get you diddley. No authority of the spectrum of 1911’s, a CREAM 1911 nevertheless jumps out. Among those I’ve fired, not one steps in front of my Les Baer 1911 Super Tac. A 4K pistol was on the line, its experienced owner raving its virtues, specifically to the tune of “the best.” With a gathering of range officers on hand, my suggestion we go to work at 100 yards fell on cold silence. Poor Les Baer, his measly Super Tac stoked with Remington Golden Saber 230 JHP over 8.5/Accurate #5 sat slammed in my po’pecker homemade scabbard.
Nor did the compulsive extrovert reach for his four thousand dollar Arkansas Special. Reckon his gun looks better----in his eyes. Perhaps his gun is perfectly reliable also. He wasn’t going to shave me on accuracy.
It’s better to work up than down. I’d look for RELIABLE & ACCURATE. It’s easier to define reliability than accuracy. Either we have reliability or we haven’t. Accuracy to this shooter means it can go on a date with a good sixgun and everybody comes away grinning.
To repeat, my shooting experience with the customs is limited. Meanwhile, the sights of some high dollar guns have passed under my eyes, to reveal issues of accuracy and/or reliability. Since the century swap more knowing gunsmiths----and manufacturers----have come on board. Which does not change the fact that some very good parts are poorly mated.
FITUP of a proper shooting iron aside, FINISH of a custom piece piles up beaucoup LABOR. David Bradshaw
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Post by Thumper on Sept 24, 2020 9:12:34 GMT -5
So that brings me to my questions: 1. At roughly what price would you separate "standard" mass produced 1911s from "premium" manufactured 1911s? $1000? $1500? $1800? More? 2. At what prince point do you feel diminishing returns start setting in? I know this is subjective, so I'm asking for your opinion. Where do you feel real benefits start dropping off and a customer starts paying for bling or bells and whistles that do little to improve performance? I'd love to have a Jason Burton Heirloom Precision, but I want a hard use tool that won't suffer massive depreciation due to range use, carry, etc. 3. Given a budget of between $1500-2300, which 1911 in your opinion do you feel offers the best value for your $$ and which would you choose for a serious SD tool? I'm thinking perhaps a Les Baer Concept IV (sorry Axehandle!) or a Dan Wesson Valor or Specialist. The Specialist has a light rail. Not sure how I feel about that yet as new holsters would be necessary, etc.
I think others have covered it, but I'll throw my opinion in as some additional support for some of the views. I build 1911s and learned from one of Bob Marvel's proteges, along with a few others.
1. Production guns, whether $500 or $1500, are differences primarily in cosmetics and accessories. A Dan Wesson is a very finely finished gun with well thought out options and a very nice slide to frame fit. Of the 15-20 DWs I've been able to shoot and take apart and inspect, I have yet to find one with a properly fit barrel; I've never found a properly fit barrel that wasn't standing on the link on any commercial 1911 from any maker, so that isn't surprising. The building technique I learned puts the barrel legs sitting on the slide stop, which just isn't going to be present in any commercially produced 1911, unless it happens by accident, just because of the time and labor involved in doing it. You have to get to a hand fit 1911 to get that. Plenty will shoot fine without having rear lockup, but you're paying for cosmetics and not the mechanics. That price to get what I consider "premium," is whatever it costs for a properly fit barrel from a gunsmith, whether it be a semi-production like a Wilson or Nighthawk or a custom from a one man shop.
2. I don't expect to ever have the disposable income for one of those fine 1911s from the big names...I sank mine into setting up my own shop. There are some great working 1911s that can be had for under $3,000, but most of those aren't going to have the cosmetics of the ones from Heirloom, which will both look great and perform. I guess I'd place that bar, based on friends that are already in the 1911 building business, at just under $3k. I know what it costs to do a full build from the builder's perspective and, fortunately, it is not my sole source of income.
3. I had a Baer Super Tac for 10 years or so that was flawless (never pushed hard, though), and a friend of mine has 85,000+ rounds through one of his and another 60,000+ through his backup, but he is also a phenomenal 1911 gunsmith and has maintained them. They shoot well and are very smooth, but another gunsmithing mentor of mine, a retired Marine gunsmith with 40+ years of setting up at the National Matches at Camp Perry, has said that when he gets someone stopping by his trailer to fix a gun that broke during the match, it's usually a Baer. He isn't the only one to have told me that. Everyone puts out a lemon from time to time, though, but some of the dimensions used in the Baer guns are proprietary, which irks me. Personally, I'd go with a Springfield Loaded and use the savings to have a few things done to it, like replace the MIM parts with barstock, replace the ILS mainspring housing, maybe have the barrel legs and hood welded up and refit. The DW is going to need the same done (except the ILS MSH), but come at a higher price point with nicer cosmetics.
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Post by AxeHandle on Sept 24, 2020 13:46:59 GMT -5
FWIW... This is the barrel lug and slide stop relationship we are taking about. We are looking for evidence of equal barrel lockup on each side. You will read of using "long links" to facilitate locking the barrel to the top of the slide. In a proper built gun the link serves to unlock the barrel only. The link plays no part in the lockup.
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Post by AxeHandle on Sept 24, 2020 13:48:42 GMT -5
Then this is where the barrel lugs lock on the slide stop NOT the link. Note the open space between the two sides
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Post by AxeHandle on Sept 24, 2020 13:51:21 GMT -5
The locking area on a wadcutter barrel is NOT the same as the locking area on a hardball gun....The final position is the same but the length of the locking area is different.
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