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Post by maxcactus on Sept 21, 2020 20:50:55 GMT -5
Feel free to skip my long-worded story and jump to the questions if you prefer.
I spent the time perusing the 1911 picture thread. It's giving me ideas.
I've owned several 1911s over the past 30 years. In all that time, I've never owned what most might consider a "premium" 1911. In fact, I sent most of the 1911s I owned down the road because they were marginally reliable at best, even with premium magazines and hardball ammunition. I currently own two 1911s. The first is a basic mil-spec Springfield Armory that I purchased > 30 years ago - my first auto pistol. This tool has been reliable, after some work. The second is a Kimber Custom, now 20 years old. The Kimber has a great fit and a very nice trigger, but has struggled in the reliability department before. A new recoil spring seems to have solved that problem, but I'm reluctant to trust the pistol until it has a LONG record of good behavior. Also, I'm not thrilled with some features like the plastic mainspring housing (seriously, Kimber?).
I'm not a kid anymore. I have a little bit of discretionary income. I'm thinking a nice/nicer 1911 might be in order. Obviously, the 1911 market is gigantic and pretty much anything a person might want can be had, if not factory/out of the box, then via the custom route for sure. I'm not looking for anything fancy, crazy, or out of the ordinary. I want a serious social/self-defense tool. 5", .45 ACP, the common/usual "enhanced" features that used to be custom - extended thumb safety, good sights, good trigger, etc. Above all, I want it made of premium materials (tool steel vs. MIM), well fitted, and dead nuts reliable.
What I don't want: A target gun, adjustable sights, a compensator, 9mm, 10mm, or .38 Super, etc.
So that brings me to my questions:
1. At roughly what price would you separate "standard" mass produced 1911s from "premium" manufactured 1911s? $1000? $1500? $1800? More?
2. At what prince point do you feel diminishing returns start setting in? I know this is subjective, so I'm asking for your opinion. Where do you feel real benefits start dropping off and a customer starts paying for bling or bells and whistles that do little to improve performance? I'd love to have a Jason Burton Heirloom Precision, but I want a hard use tool that won't suffer massive depreciation due to range use, carry, etc.
3. Given a budget of between $1500-2300, which 1911 in your opinion do you feel offers the best value for your $$ and which would you choose for a serious SD tool? I'm thinking perhaps a Les Baer Concept IV (sorry Axehandle!) or a Dan Wesson Valor or Specialist. The Specialist has a light rail. Not sure how I feel about that yet as new holsters would be necessary, etc.
Thank you all in advance.
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aciera
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Post by aciera on Sept 21, 2020 21:38:43 GMT -5
To me there are 4 levels Basic....they shoot Upgraded big company.......now into 4 digits in price. Lots of upgrade choices and they probably fit your taste more
Your specialty group....nighthawk, Wilson, Brown.....you are in the $1800-5000 range. Now you ask if you are worth it. Can you justify it. Many make their own parts. Lots of bells and whistles......depending on what you want.
And then.......Chen,Yost, Christensen and CT Brian. There may be some others. Brace yourself for $$$$$$ and the wait. Some guarantee 1” groups.....in a 3” Officers.....but are typically 1/2-5/8”. No easy trick.
You can find used much cheaper. But are rarer. You can hit 5 digits easily on new.
I got a 20 year old from the last group. From Alaska. SS officers model. Sent it to the original smith and he checked it out ......few rounds fired. Made for carry. When I picked it up I said”Motherxxxxxxx”. The girl at the counter looked at me and said “what?” They know me and have never heard me swear. It was a different gun than normal. In the metals trade for 40 year.....work was amazing. Cost me 3x more than I have ever spent on any gun. A new one would have cost 3x the price of this one.
It was a hard decision.......it really was. I worked a little longer before retiring to buy it.
Now I know I did the right thing. Without a doubt. Shooting it is a joy. And I will change springs more often. And I will never slam the slide on an empty chamber. Because he said so.
Get what you want.......this is the nicest shooting 1911 for carry I’ve ever sho. and I’ve shot a few
On edit.....the last group are usually one man shops. You know who built your gun from beginning to end.
ALL the work is done by the man you are hiring. Most big names have a few or more folks working in them.
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Post by zeus on Sept 21, 2020 22:03:20 GMT -5
I won’t buy any more LB guns personally. There are some little things that drive me crazy on various guns I own or have owned from them. Small items but should not be happening on that price point. Wilson makes a great gun. Pricey but cosmetically and function wise, they are really nice. I have a gun from Jason Burton and its truly a work of art. I think personally the best bang for the buck is a good Dan Wesson on the 1200-1500 end. I have probably half a dozen different models and I have nothing but praise for any of them. They are fit well and shoot lights out. I don’t worry about messing one up or shooting it at the range. The valor is a great gun. Find some to put your hands on and compare them if you can.
I’ll add that the Rock River Arms guns I have are exceptional. And for the money, I may give them a good look. You can order with a Kart barrel and the fit and finish is incredible. You can get one for slightly more than some DW guns and slightly less than others. You won’t find them in stock just anywhere but if you’re willing to wait a few months, you can order with choice of sight, checkering LPI, barrel make etc.
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Post by mike454 on Sept 21, 2020 22:04:57 GMT -5
I think the best value are the Dan Wessons, at least they were. I have the PM9 and 2 Valors in 9mm. the PM9 jammed quite a bit the first 100 rounds and hasn't given me a problem since. 1 valor gave me some trouble with the federal 147 fmj flat nose to start but was fine after the first 100 rounds. The other Valor runs like a top. I paid under $1500 each for those in the duty treat finish. MSRP on those is closer to $2200 and I'm not sure I'd pay that. I also had a silverback that I bought online that had a slide frame fit that was on the loose side that I sold. My 2 Les Baers in 45 were both great, never gave me a moments problem. They were accurate and reliable and I felt were an excellent value. I got them both for well under MSRP. Both had the 1.5" 50 yard guarantee. I understand that Les can be difficult when it comes to warranty work and I have heard people have had issues with his build and execution. My wilson classic 9mm has the best fit and finish of any 1911 I've owned and is a joy to shoot. the slide glides on the frame the trigger is light and crisp, the thumb safety snicks on and off and it's accurate. It has given me trouble with the federal 147 fmj flat nose jamming and bumping the slide stop. All the other ammo types have worked fine.It's my understanding that Wilson has some of the finest customer service in the industry so I imagine they'll take care of things without drama. If I were looking right now I'd take a look at the Wilson ACP. Just introduced as far as I know, but looks to be a good value. A touch out of your price range but might be worth saving a bit longer. The styling isn't really to my taste, but if you like it it will probably be very nicely done. If you ordered it through a distributor you might able to get it for a bit less than retail. www.wilsoncombat.com/acp-full-size/Also had a couple colts that were just ok.
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Post by bradshaw on Sept 21, 2020 22:14:22 GMT -5
Feel free to skip my long-worded story and jump to the questions if you prefer. I spent the time perusing the 1911 picture thread. It's giving me ideas. I've owned several 1911s over the past 30 years. In all that time, I've never owned what most might consider a "premium" 1911. In fact, I sent most of the 1911s I owned down the road because they were marginally reliable at best, even with premium magazines and hardball ammunition. I currently own two 1911s. The first is a basic mil-spec Springfield Armory that I purchased > 30 years ago - my first auto pistol. This tool has been reliable, after some work. The second is a Kimber Custom, now 20 years old. The Kimber has a great fit and a very nice trigger, but has struggled in the reliability department before. A new recoil spring seems to have solved that problem, but I'm reluctant to trust the pistol until it has a LONG record of good behavior. Also, I'm not thrilled with some features like the plastic mainspring housing (seriously, Kimber?). I'm not a kid anymore. I have a little bit of discretionary income. I'm thinking a nice/nicer 1911 might be in order. Obviously, the 1911 market is gigantic and pretty much anything a person might want can be had, if not factory/out of the box, then via the custom route for sure. I'm not looking for anything fancy, crazy, or out of the ordinary. I want a serious social/self-defense tool. 5", .45 ACP, the common/usual "enhanced" features that used to be custom - extended thumb safety, good sights, good trigger, etc. Above all, I want it made of premium materials (tool steel vs. MIM), well fitted, and dead nuts reliable. What I don't want: A target gun, adjustable sights, a compensator, 9mm, 10mm, or .38 Super, etc. So that brings me to my questions: 1. At roughly what price would you separate "standard" mass produced 1911s from "premium" manufactured 1911s? $1000? $1500? $1800? More? 2. At what prince point do you feel diminishing returns start setting in? I know this is subjective, so I'm asking for your opinion. Where do you feel real benefits start dropping off and a customer starts paying for bling or bells and whistles that do little to improve performance? I'd love to have a Jason Burton Heirloom Precision, but I want a hard use tool that won't suffer massive depreciation due to range use, carry, etc. 3. Given a budget of between $1500-2300, which 1911 in your opinion do you feel offers the best value for your $$ and which would you choose for a serious SD tool? I'm thinking perhaps a Les Baer Concept IV (sorry Axehandle!) or a Dan Wesson Valor or Specialist. The Specialist has a light rail. Not sure how I feel about that yet as new holsters would be necessary, etc. Thank you all in advance. ***** RELIABILITY should be GIVEN. Why? Why not? John Moses Browning play the reliability game hardcorps. Various World War I Colt 1911’s of my acquaintance were stupefyingly reliable. Designed around 230 grain hardball, target shooting was not on the menu. As Ben "Bear Man" Kilham says, “Browning’s 1911 will be around to haunt auto pistol development as long as we have the self-contained cartridge.” Name a tilt-lock, delayed blowback auto that doesn’t owe its very existence to Browning. For years a myth held sway you can’t have reliability & accuracy in the same pistol. There is truth to the myth. Truth is, some excellent smiths struggled to bring Browning’s baby to approximate accuracy and especially reliability of a proper Colt or Smith & Wesson revolver----withbullets other than round nose. Cantankerous as he may be, Les Baer is one member of my generation who understood the challenge of combining accuracy with reliability in a tilt-lock delayed blowback. Others of generations made strides, but I count Baer as the main instigator in answering the challenge in one pistol. The Rock River boys join this feverish quest. Incidentally, both Les Baer and Rock River used Kart barrels. Refinement in magazines since the Browning days bring reliability with SWC, JHP, as well as wadcutter, to many more pistols. Even so, my Baers feed the oddball rounds fine from ancient GI magazines, and empties from mags by Wilson-Rogers, Les Baer, Mec-Gar, and Pachmayr (Italian, perhaps made by Mec-Gar). It is reasonable to presume Pocket Pool Offhand----bullseye----inspired the Accuracy with Reliability caper. It is also reasonable to see how RELIABILTY fell victim to the Alibi Rule, which permits a competitor to reshoot a string in the event of a stoppage. Alibis encourage sandbagging. As... competitor leaks a shot, then places his thumb against the slide to induce a stoppage. Poor fellow, give him an alibi. Practical Pistol, as promoted by Jeff Cooper, forbade the alibi, as did IHMSA silhouette. There is one other peculiarity of bullseye which promoted accuracy while impeding efforts at reliability----the WADCUTTER bullet. The wadcutter might also be called the ring-grabber for its scissor-cut to full bullet diameter to cut a scoring ring the old punkin ball pushes aside. Reckon old John Moses would enjoy putting the squeeze to instruments built in his shadow by those who incorporate the essential lessons. I’m not the one to bring you up to date on 1911’s to satisfy now proven performance; someone will have to shoot mightly tight to topple the benchmark. David Bradshaw
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nicholst55
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Post by nicholst55 on Sept 22, 2020 4:53:49 GMT -5
maxcactus: I am in a similar position. I am approaching retirement and want to treat myself to a better 1911 than I have previously been able to afford. I decided to join a 1911 forum and lurk for a while, and then start asking informed questions. I joined the 1911 Addicts forum back in July, and I have already learned a lot, and I thought that I was reasonably knowledgeable on the 1911. I am learning more daily. There are a lot of overpriced pistols out there, is one thing that I have learned. In the under-$2K price range, I would look hard at Dan Wesson. That said, DW seems to still be experiencing galling on their stainless pistols (which is all but one model) - unless they have the black (nitride) finish. Not every gun, of course, but enough that it does seem to be an issue. My understanding is that they changed the source of their frame and slide forgings fairly recently, and the current crop is somewhat softer than before. On the plus side, DW uses forged slides and frames, and reportedly does not use any MIM parts. Springfield, on the other hand, has forged slides and frames, but they are filled with MIM parts. Still, Springfield makes some affordable guns that would be a good basis upon which to build. Many feel, however, that their Custom Shop guns are significantly overpriced for what they are.
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Post by squawberryman on Sept 22, 2020 5:27:47 GMT -5
Aciera a picture of that would be nice sir.
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aciera
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Post by aciera on Sept 22, 2020 5:43:13 GMT -5
Trying to learn to post pictures
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Post by zeus on Sept 22, 2020 7:31:03 GMT -5
Put in imgur. Then just paste the link here with before your link and [/img] after Here is my gun from that last group mentioned. Jason Burton built with ivory etc. work of art to hold and really see the details and how perfect the metal work is. Every line trued, flattened tightened etc.
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Post by Rimfire69 on Sept 22, 2020 7:46:34 GMT -5
That is one fantastic looking .45, ivories and all.
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Post by squawberryman on Sept 22, 2020 13:30:57 GMT -5
That'll do
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Post by AxeHandle on Sept 22, 2020 14:07:46 GMT -5
Nice....
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Post by AxeHandle on Sept 22, 2020 14:49:53 GMT -5
I really think David Bradshaw is simply pushing my buttons when he talks about pocket pool shooters and then elaborates on the alibi in pocket pool shooting. FWIW It has been my personal experience that the people who are this negative about Bullseye/Precision pistol are people who may be skilled in some type of pistol shooting but have simply never been able to do the one handed thing. I don't believe this is true in this case since he doesn't even understand what a pocket pool alibi consist of. I've heard the alibi process he talks about attributed to high power rifle. 1. The alibi buys you nothing except an opportunity to have 10 shots scored. ALL shots down range count. In the event of an alibi you could possibly have as many as 14 shots on paper. The low 10 count for score. In the case of off paper misses they score as 0 and are part of your 10 scored shots. Standing alone on the line with every shooter on the line watching you is not the best high scoring environment. You know you've done your part if your low 10 still scores 100. Means all you lost was X count. 2. David would lead you to believe that if the hammer fell on his IHMSA gun and the gun did NOT fire that would be scored as a miss. I don't think that was the case. You would remove the round and fire another. That is NOT the case in pocket pool. You must declare an alibi and fire an alibi string. 3. I personally shot 1911s built by the best on the planet. My unit level guns (USAF) were all marked AFPG (Air Force Premium Grade). They ran 100% year round with virtually unlimited ammo issued to me. The wadcutter (185 SWC) guns were as reliable as hardball (230 FMJ)guns. When they did fail we turned them and and were issued replacements. When I made the All National Guard Team I was issued a second set of guns again built by the best gunsmiths in the world. Maybe they weren't as slick and pretty as a 6K custom but stick them in a ransom rest and they would show you how they were better. 4. I never shot much silhouette. I am life member of IHMSA (3304) but no IHMSA matches around here. Only shot a little NRA Hunter's Pistol. I can say that I shot my 1911 pocket pool gun in a match one weekend and shot a good A class score. Next weekend pulled out a 357 TC and shot a AAA score in the morning and a AAA score at another club in the evening. Made me AAA. NOW.... Baer does some nice stuff... Maybe on par with Dan Wesson. I like DW better. Met Baer at Bianchi. Did not find him to be a pleasant person. Met Ed Brown there too. Nice man. The Baer guns at my house got there in a round about way. That is the only way they would get there. Had to have my pocket pool gun builder rebarrel one of them. Holding a pair of Nighthawk 1911s. I like them
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aciera
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Post by aciera on Sept 22, 2020 14:53:26 GMT -5
Zeus that is stunning. You can see the CT Brian influences........Jason has said he was one of his favorites.
Yost used to work at Heirloom I believe.
Every edge is broken the same. That’s not a polishing wheel. That’s file and stone work.
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Post by zeus on Sept 22, 2020 15:23:13 GMT -5
Zeus that is stunning. You can see the CT Brian influences........Jason has said he was one of his favorites. Yost used to work at Heirloom I believe. Every edge is broken the same. That’s not a polishing wheel. That’s file and stone work. Yep Ted, Jason and another guy had Heirloom originally. Ted then opened estate arms or something like that and Jason kept the Heirloom banner. The amount of handwork one these guns is pretty extensive. Like I said, every flat is flat, and the curves have been corrected, rails welded and recut etc. love these guns
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