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Post by AxeHandle on Sept 24, 2020 14:22:11 GMT -5
Own a Baer that passed through another shop. The secondary shop claimed, and charged significantly for, a check up, clean up, and tuning if needed. Gun shot good. A few hundred rounds down the pipe I noted that the barrel lugs were camming on one side only evidenced by marks in the blue on one side of the slide stop pin. Since Baer would never fix it, since it had been "fixed" by the second shop, I sent a message to the second shop. I got no reply. Waited a week and followed my message with one saying I was going to post pictures of what he did on the 1911 forum. I got an immediate response threatening to sic his lawyer on me. When we all calmed down he offered to fix it. Talked to KC Crawford about it. Send the gun and my money to KC. He fitted a new barrel.
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Post by maxcactus on Sept 24, 2020 18:12:33 GMT -5
Axe, thanks for the photos illustrating what proper barrel lug fit up to the slide stop looks like. I've read Jerry Kuhnhausen's books on smithing the 1911 many times and have a fairly decent idea what proper barrel fit looks like, but I appreciate your experience and input. I guess the part that surprises me, based on the posts above, is that proper barrel fit seems to be a rather rare occurrence in factory produced and even the custom 1911 market. Sure, we pay smiths for correct, precise hand-fitting of parts to minimal clearances. I just hadn't realized it was so elusive, even at the $1500-2000 level to find a properly fitted barrel, let alone an entire pistol. It's obviously difficult to check this before purchase, also. Most retail stores won't let someone remove a bolt from a bolt action rifle, let alone field strip a $2K 1911. And of course the fitting is new at that point, so wear patterns can't be seen. So what do we have left? We have little more than the reputation of the manufacturer or custom smith to go on at this point. If I go the custom route, I'll make sure to inquire about barrel fitting up front and specify what I want.
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Post by rangersedge on Sept 24, 2020 18:53:28 GMT -5
Very informative thread. I've read great things about Joe Chambers. What are peoples thoughts on the Cabots?
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Post by AxeHandle on Sept 24, 2020 19:35:13 GMT -5
The Cabot products look good. A couple of top precision pistol competitors have used them to win at Camp Perry.
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Post by cundiff5535 on Sept 24, 2020 19:53:16 GMT -5
The Cabot products look good. A couple of top precision pistol competitors have used them to win at Camp Perry. I'm not a Cabot guy... but I know Rob has straightened them out from the wreck they were at one point in time. Rob is also running Alchemy... both companies to my knowledge take the approach of hard fitting a barrel. Cabot in particular has a very over the top style... which for a lot of people is just to much. Again, just my opinion, but for me, I am not sure value is there vs the competition at that price point. Additionally, I am a bigger believer in fitting a barrel very precisely vs the hard fit that they embrace. I really do think that slamming two pieces of metal together for an extended period of time leads to two things happening... 1. parts breaking (IE the comment about L.B guns needing work by the smith at Perry), and 2. parts losing fitment as at some point those beating parts (even lightly) will need to give way and not be as correct as they once were. Thats my personal view point on the whole deal. I think for >3K hard fit is a solid way to go... I also know that once upon a time if a gun want hard fit, it was considered wrong... esp by a custom smith. Times change, innovation happens, and thought processes eventually change... at least for some!
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JM
.375 Atomic
Posts: 2,416
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Post by JM on Sept 24, 2020 20:15:32 GMT -5
Do the high end customs with properly fit barrels as described above, still mar the barrel hood as the slide cycles fore & aft?
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Post by mike454 on Sept 24, 2020 20:17:48 GMT -5
I just hadn't realized it was so elusive, even at the $1500-2000 level to find a properly fitted barrel, let alone an entire pistol. It's obviously difficult to check this before purchase, also. Pretty sure a properly fitting barrel according to the original JMB blueprints has the barrel riding the link, just like most production 1911s do. Not to say there aren't better ways, but that doesn't necessarily make the way JMB designed it wrong.
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Post by rangersedge on Sept 24, 2020 21:31:46 GMT -5
I'm surprised Rock River hasn't been mentioned. At one time, they had a commander size model... i think it was a combat elite or something. I kept an ad for that for a long time. Seems like you get could it with 1.25" guarantee or something. I remember it was better than L.B.'s and the only one that size with that option. Doesn't look like they offer that model or guarantee now.
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Post by zeus on Sept 24, 2020 23:18:21 GMT -5
I'm surprised Rock River hasn't been mentioned. At one time, they had a commander size model... i think it was a combat elite or something. I kept an ad for that for a long time. Seems like you get could it with 1.25" guarantee or something. I remember it was better than L.B.'s and the only one that size with that option. Doesn't look like they offer that model or guarantee now. Oh you can still get them I mentioned them on Page 1😉
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Post by rangersedge on Sept 25, 2020 6:27:25 GMT -5
You're right! I missed that.
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Post by Rimfire69 on Sept 25, 2020 6:59:25 GMT -5
Fantastic thread, hope there is another 4 pages coming.
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Post by zeus on Sept 25, 2020 7:24:50 GMT -5
You're right! I missed that. They will do just about anything you want. You just have to order it. Mine are all marked very Minimally. I order with Heinie sights and Kart barrels. You can choose checkering size etc. they have been amazing to work with. The 38S I got in recently is awesome. I may shoot it some this weekend.
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Post by AxeHandle on Sept 25, 2020 7:49:59 GMT -5
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Post by AxeHandle on Sept 25, 2020 7:51:14 GMT -5
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Post by bradshaw on Sept 25, 2020 8:45:58 GMT -5
I make no pretense at knowing dimensional relationships of a 1911 properly set up to be at once RELIABLE & ACCURATE. I do know when a 1911 performs to my satisfaction. My measure of auto pistol performance, while it takes into consideration it mechanism, cartridge, and size, basically starts in the shadow of a good revolver----which implies accuracy available to few if any autoloaders, with reliability tested in the big woods, where no auto exceeds it. And while magnum class autos are outside this discussion, there is not a magnum autoloader made to challenge at the height of its glory and good revolver in its sleep. How about living with .44 magnum revolvers half a century which have NEVER experienced a stoppage?
In stripping couple of mid-1960’s Colt 1911 National Match (pre-Gold Cup marking), and a couple of late-1990-2000 Les Baer Super Tac 1911’s, the two Colts 5-6 inch guns @ 100 yards, the Les Baers 3-inch guns, it is apparent slide-to-frame differs. The four guns all eat any kind of .45 ACP, even from World War era magazines. I did not study barrel fit-up to slide, which is really where accuracy in a tilt-lock is made. This much I can say of the Colt National Match: * Barrel bushing counterbored in center, which leaves a ring for muzzle support at either end. * As slide goes into battery the chamber is wedged up into the slide. * Triangular seating on barrel into slide. Upward pressure on barrel at chamber & muzzle. Downward pressure on barrel about 3/4” behind muzzle.
The most accurate production autos----in my experience----have been SIG/Sauer P220 .45 ACP, P226 9mm Luger, P229 .357 SIG, P239 9mm Luger. Each of these barrels seats in manner described above. While at dinner with Bill Ruger, Jr., and various Sturm, Ruger personnel (Prescott AZ 2002, Bill Ruger’s memorial), I made a drawing of SIG/Sauer barrel seating, accompanied with a suggestion to experiment with this seating for Ruger centerfire autos. Ruger’s auto were manufactured in Prescott; whether anyone present from the plant was at that table I don’t know. My drawing went into the pocket of a top executive and may have been used to light a cigar for all I know. Bill. Jr., was more focussed on his father at that moment.
Now I wish I’d torn down a Rock River 1911 to look at barrel/slide relationship, since the gun shot right next to the Les Baer. That particular Super Tac had just given me a 2nd round center-punch on a 12” gong @ 180 yards, my spotter having called my first shot 6 o’clock 18-inches. Believe the ammo was Federal Hydra-Shot 230 JHP. David Bradshaw
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