groo
.327 Meteor
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I yet live!!!!
Posts: 855
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Post by groo on Apr 17, 2020 12:25:44 GMT -5
Groo here A 240 gr lead 44 mag with Bullseye loaded to 1.610 oal maxes out at 7.1 gr [Hornady #9] If you take a "Keith" 245 gr SWC [long nose] in a 44 spec, because of he nose length you get an internal volume about the same as the 44 mag. If you take the same boolet and put it in a special case with a balloon head you get MORE volume and lower pressure........... So the above load is in the higher end of things but should be fine...... with THAT combination. To try it, a true "Keith" bullet in a 44mag case should be about right.
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Post by junebug on Apr 17, 2020 18:52:41 GMT -5
If you try this do it first thing when you get to the range not after 30 rds of 357 max benched from a 10 in Contender and 10 or so 6.5 x 55 benched. Shot 4 aces at 10 yds 8.5 gr Unique 240 cast in .44 special flat top . Kept them all on the cards with two ok groups,not Keith sized but ok at 67. Elmer was in his what 20's or 30's at the time. ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) Is the front sight supposed to wiggle, THAT MUCH? ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) ?
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Post by sixshot on Apr 17, 2020 21:54:16 GMT -5
What happens when you get older is eye strain, hard to hold those itty bitty groups when the edges of the sight start to blur just a bit. Most of us old birds are ok with the trigger but the eyes betray us.
Dick
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Post by junebug on Apr 18, 2020 16:38:21 GMT -5
Have a peep sight on the 96 model Swede and was getting what I call a ghost image on top of the front post yesterday. On the 44 even at 10 yds had to smoke the front sight to see it yesterday,but it was fun trying.
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Post by webber on Apr 18, 2020 17:35:58 GMT -5
Here I chime in again.. I have the "Sixguns" book that ace is published in. I have a deck of Bee playing cards. I took a set of dial calipers and measured the body of the ace itself in the book and the Bee ace I have as both are extremely close in size. Actually if they are off it is a very, very, very few thousands with the one in the book being a very, very, very few thousands smaller. Next I measured the group of shots in the ace. It was 1.135" to the outside to outside of the widest point in the group. Now remember the ace in the book is MAYBE a trifle smaller than the ace on the new card I have. So actually the group is a trifle larger than what I measured but we will give the benefit of the doubt to Mr Keith. Now that 1.135" equals to 10.8385 MOA accuracy. That 10.8385 MOA equals 11.35 inches at 100 yards. I have shot several 100 yard groups offhand that have measured less than 11 inches with several much less than 11 Inches with different guns including a M69 Smith 2.75 inch more than once. In fact Thursday morning I shot five at 100 yard with a 45 Auto that had 4 in 8.75 inches with one going slightly below the target since I didn't know the group would be so low. It wouldnt have messed with the group much if it had been on paper. I will admit that was with a Vortex dot sight. But I rarely use dot sights. Just something thrown out to ponder.
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Post by boolitdesigner on Apr 18, 2020 17:49:13 GMT -5
1.135"-0.430" = 0.705"x10 = 7.05"/1.0472" per MOA = 6.73 MOA actual group.... though I understand what you were trying to get at. Groups are center to center.
Dick is quite right. You may (or may not) have the nerves to do it, but your eyes WILL betray you at times (more so when you get some age on you)..................................
Outside Diameter (OD) has no business being related to MOA (which uses Center to Center group measurement). That's one of those scientific things. Sorry about that..................but there is a big difference between your 10.8385 MOA group and my 6.73 MOA.... a heck of a lot more than one 0.430" bullet diameter.
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Post by webber on Apr 18, 2020 17:52:46 GMT -5
I am measuring outside to outside. That is the area that contains the shots. Benchrest method Is that but I am interested where the Whole bullet lands. The benchrest methods makes it sound better. PLUS I am interested in the size circle the group will land in. Degrees, minutes and seconds don't lie just like the radians don't lie. Even with just using the 1.135 measurement the group of shot will land in 11.35 inches. Unless linear means different thing to different people. LINEAR: arranged in or extending along a straight or nearly straight line. "linear movement" PLUS it would take a 1.135 inch circle to contain the shots on the "Ace" No way a 1.135 inch circle will be smaller than 11.35 inches at 100 yards if linear is true and degrees, minutes and seconds or radians are true.
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Post by seancass on Apr 18, 2020 20:14:02 GMT -5
PLUS it would take a 1.135 inch circle to contain the shots on the "Ace" No way a 1.135 inch circle will be smaller than 11.35 inches at 100 yards if linear is true and degrees, minutes and seconds or radians are true. This is only true if the bullets increase in diameter in a constant linear fashion. Measuring groups and then changing distances can not include bullet diameter. What if Keith had shot this with a 45? Does the edge of the bullet extend past the edge of the Ace or must he shoot a tighter group? The same bullet hole would extend 0.01 inches further out((0.45-.43)/2). Does that bullet turn at 100 yards? Edit: No, I don't like that analogy. What if it's a gun with a 1-inch bore and only two shots, 0.135 inches apart, so it's still a 1.135 inch group. Is that group at 100 yards 11.35 inches, or is it 1.35 inches?
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Post by webber on Apr 18, 2020 20:32:09 GMT -5
PLUS it would take a 1.135 inch circle to contain the shots on the "Ace" No way a 1.135 inch circle will be smaller than 11.35 inches at 100 yards if linear is true and degrees, minutes and seconds or radians are true. This is only true if the bullets increase in diameter in a constant linear fashion. Measuring groups and then changing distances can not include bullet diameter. What if Keith had shot this with a 45? Does the edge of the bullet extend past the edge of the Ace or must he shoot a tighter group? The same bullet hole would extend 0.01 inches further out((0.45-.43)/2). Does that bullet turn at 100 yards? IF he had shot the 1.135 inch group with a 45 his group would have been smaller according to the benchrest gamer 1.135-.452 thus .683" according to BR gamer rules. If he had shot the same BR gamer rule size group as he did with the .430 the group of shots in the circle containing them would have been 1.157 (.705 plus .452) so there we go. A larger circle. Now if anyone can tell me how a 1.135 inch circle at 10 yards can morph into a 6.73 MOA plus .430 (7.476") inch diameter circle at 100 yards I am all ears.
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Post by seancass on Apr 18, 2020 20:36:16 GMT -5
Sorry, I edited my post while you where typing:
Edit: No, I don't like that analogy. What if it's a gun with a 1-inch bore and only two shots, 0.135 inches apart, so it's still a 1.135 inch group. Is that group at 100 yards 11.35 inches, or is it 1.35 inches?
Sorry for the confusion of the edit.
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Post by junebug on Apr 18, 2020 21:07:20 GMT -5
Did you shoot your 2.75 in group offhand or benched? Keith shot his off hand .Get out and try it yourself with open sights and a 44 pistol at 10 yds offhand ,if you can do it great shooting I sure can't.
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Post by webber on Apr 18, 2020 21:11:26 GMT -5
That is a M69 2.75 inch not group size but barrel length but I have shot a few groups with if in the 7.75 inch to 8.5 inch Offhand 100 yard groups with it and iron sights. I typed in the above post, a M69 Smith 2.75 inch. that is the way most, I believe, addresses model and barrel length is it not?
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Post by sixshot on Apr 18, 2020 21:44:53 GMT -5
Very impressive shooting gents, I like it! The old pie plate at 100 yds offhand is a serious task for any six gunner, try it sometime.
Dick
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Post by boolitdesigner on Apr 18, 2020 21:52:48 GMT -5
Now if anyone can tell me how a 1.135 inch circle at 10 yards can morph into a 6.73 MOA plus .430 (7.476") inch diameter circle at 100 yards I am all ears. The answer requires either using some advanced math or drawing it out on paper. I suggest you try the paper as its easier to understand. You start at one point where the bullet leaves the barrel. At 10 yards you have four points to plot, the outside bullet diameters of the farthest shots (1.135" apart) and the centers of the outside farthest shots (0.705" apart or 1/2 the bullet diameter in from the O.D. points....please do so in a vertical line). Draw four lines from the muzzle thru each of the points and look at what they look like. It should be illuminating.....................................
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Post by webber on Apr 18, 2020 22:30:13 GMT -5
Now if anyone can tell me how a 1.135 inch circle at 10 yards can morph into a 6.73 MOA plus .430 (7.476") inch diameter circle at 100 yards I am all ears. The answer requires either using some advanced math or drawing it out on paper. I suggest you try the paper as its easier to understand. You start at one point where the bullet leaves the barrel. At 10 yards you have four points to plot, the outside bullet diameters of the farthest shots (1.135" apart) and the centers of the outside farthest shots (0.705" apart or 1/2 the bullet diameter in from the O.D. points....please do so in a vertical line). Draw four lines from the muzzle thru each of the points and look at what they look like. It should be illuminating..................................... Okay. You have a distance from the outer edges of the barrel that contains the bullet. At 10 yards the left edge of a bullet hits .5675 right at that distance and the other shot hits .5675 left at 10 yards. that is 1.135 inches if you put a circle that will enclose the edges of the two bullets that will be a 1.135 inch circle. That 1.135 inch circle cannot mathematically become smaller at 100 yards than 11.35 inches by the degree minutes and seconds formulation. So how does a 1.135 inch circle at 10 yards become smaller as the range increases. Remember linear. The edges of the two widest shots are .5675 inches away from the center of the group both ways that add up to 1.135 inches That would still take a 1.135 inch circle to encompass. Still 1.135 inch circle cannot stay linear and get smaller at 100 yards.
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