194 gr Bradshaw-Martin SWC GC

[contender]

Dick,, I remember you casting a 2 part bullet,, and having distinct wrinkles, lines or whatever. A soft, pure lead nose & the harder base portion. It has always made me wonder a bit. And you are right,, the nose doesn't come into contact with the barrel,, but my thinking was at longer distances,, the aerodynamics might be affected. ANY bullets with defects in the lands that contact the barrel get immediately culled.

I'll probably still separate the very best ones from any with minor flaws. I'll only use the "best" for actual hunting & such.

I'll try pressure casting & see what happens. I was thinking it might be that the mold keeps cooling off just enough to where I don't get good fillout. My casting temp is now 750,, and I alternate molds. Plus,, in between each mold,, I use a hot plate on a somewhat hotter medium setting to keep things warm. I had been casting at a temp of 735 with my brass molds,, w/o any issues.

[sixshot]

Tyrone, casting a 2 part bullet, wheel weight base & a pure lead nose can be tricky. You have to cast very hot, a hot mold & a hot alloy. Plus lead is hard to cast with & not get wrinkles. I never make softnose cast where bullet below the ogive are wrinkled, only from the ogive forward. Here's a test you can try, it might surprise you. Take 5 perfect bullets & shoot them at 50 yds, iron sights. Now, take 5 of your bullets that are slightly wrinkled & shoot them at 50 yds with iron sights. You can even go one step further. Take 5 really wrinkled bullets with decent bases & see what happens, you'll still shoot pretty darn good groups!

You will probably be surprised to see there is very little hunting accuracy difference between the 2 targets. If you are looking for bullseye accuracy yes, but most of us can't shoot the difference between the 2 different bullets. I cast with my furnace very hot, usually maximum temp at all times, the reason being the lack of high tin content demands that you use more heat to get good bullet fill out. If you are casting straight linotype or some other alloy with a high tin content you can lower temps, I don't. Don't worry about the bullets being frosted, you're still making good bullets, just don't get so hot you warp your mold.

Dick

[contender]

I remember the lesson you gave on casting the 2 part bullets. I was watching VERY closely,,, It's an idea that has stuck in my head for sure.

As I said,, I plan on trying my slightly flawed bullets. Now,, you have me considering the idea of trying some that I'd normally cull. And I know that "hunting accuracy" may be just fine. But I like to push for bullseye accuracy as much as possible. See,, there is that dern loose nut behind the trigger that needs all the help it can get!

And frosting,, I understand it's not a big issue,,, especially since we soften them a bit & coat them when we PC the bullets.

[Lee Martin]

I agree with Dick and David on all of the above:

1) I run my furnace at 850 degrees regardless of the tin content. For 25:1 alloy, the wrinkles disappear after 10 - 15 pours. You get some frosting with linotype, but that doesn't make a bit of difference down range.

2) Wrinkles on the nose don't matter. Now if they're on the body, they go into the pot. I usually toss nose wrinkled back as the mold heats. But I have shot them side-by-side with perfect bullets. The gun and the target can't tell the difference.

3) Weighing bullets isn't necessary. I've shot cast that vary by 3 grains alongside ones weighing within a tenth. At 100 yards, that weight delta never shows up. And while 3 grains sounds like a lot, on a 194 gr slug it equates to 1.5%. My nerves and eyes aren't good enough to squeeze that out on paper (assuming it even matters).

Keep us posted on your shooting with the Bradshaw-Martin 194. I think you'll like it.

-Lee
www.singleactions.com
"Chasing perfection five shots at a time"

[contender]

Ok,,, y'all have made good solid real world experience arguments. I guess I'm just a bit old fashioned in that when i started casting long ago,, I didn't accept anything that didn't come close to "perfect."

I may increase my temp on my PID a bit to see if that smooths out the aluminum mold casting those ugly bullets.

My bullet mix is a 70% WW & 30% lead mix. I haven't tried to do any Linotype mixes yet with this one.

When I weigh my bullets,, I sort them into one grain increments. Example; my Bradshaw/Martins, have mostly come out in the 192 grn range. I keep the 192.0 to 192.9 in one batch. I have a smaller number,, (about 10%) in the 191.0 to 191.9 range. And very few in either the 190 or 193 range. I think I've tossed 4-5 that were either above that or below that. I had so few in the 190 range, they got tossed. And I think I've saved about 20 in the 193 range.

But,, I will also post my results using both my slightly flawed ones, alongside my "perfect" ones. My flawed ones all fell into the 191 to 193 range too. That batch is a mixed bag.

I pulled down my Ruger & double checked my sights on it last night. The Fermin front blade measures .127 while my rear notch measures .082. It's a 10-1/2" barreled gun & that gives me a nice sight picture. My T/C in 10" has a 3x20 scope on it. Looking forward to shooting the Ruger with the new front sight too!

[sixshot]

Tyrone, sure not trying to tell you what to do here but if your bases are flat & you're pretty much wrinkle free you can forget about weighing any cast bullet because it's next to impossible to shoot the difference. Here's a few reasons: Are you prepping your cases, probably not, not sorting them by lot, maybe not even by head stamp, are you trimming each time, probably not, are you gauging the flash holes, probably not, are you seating the bullet half a turn, turning the case & doing the final seat so as to get a more concentric bullet or using a dial indicator to check for bullet run out, probably not.

What I'm saying is, a small difference in bullet weight is just one small part of making an accurate load & then if you're shooting that load with iron sights you better be in the same class as David Bradshaw or Lee Martin, or some of the other great shooters here on the forum. Doing it without a scope is next to impossible to prove anything about your load beyond a short distance. Hope this makes some sense. Good shooting to you buddy!

Dick

[bradshaw]

A motivator in designing the Bradshaw-Martin .357 194 SWC GC was to target with hunting attributes, with an ogive long enough to hold Center of Gravity (COG) rearward for long range stability, while keeping a decent meplat. While the bullet is designed for deep seating only, it can be seated longer----crimp above middle band----in .38 Special, .357 Mag , and .357 Maximum brass. Just be sure the cylinder is long enough.

With Dick Thompson talking brass preparation, my practice is to separate by make and, when possible, by lot. To spread wear & tear, I tend to shoot brass in rotation. Case mouths are left square, or nearly so, with just the slightest chamfer; this keeps the mouth strong and provides a good crimp with less roll. I do not trim revolver brass unless it needs it. Or, unless I want a specific, shorter case length. With deep seating, I roll crimp .020 to .060-inch above front band. Depth determined by the crimp die. At all hazards, avoid crimping into the band. I do not want to distort the bullet and that includes the band.

The argument a bullet, especially a cast bullet, must be supported by the chamber exit during ignition has not been proven in my shooting. The LEADE, or angle from CHAMBER to EXIT HOLE (THROAT), must be smooth.
David Bradshaw

[contender]

All good points Dick. And I KNOW I'll never be in the same class as David, Lee,, or even you in shooting skills.

But,, I do prep cases for my serious stuff. I actually use one brand at a time. I sort them by weight & cut to length, & chamfer. Uniformity. I also cut the burrs off the inside of the flash holes, and I cut the primer pockets for uniformity. I don't turn the bullets when seating,, but I do gauge my ammo for concentric seating for my serious stuff. Yeah,, yeah,, I know,, overkill.
I started stuff like this years ago when working up serious long range ammo for my Contender for hunting,, and it carried over to all of my serious hunting ammo. In fact,, my USPSA Match ammo isn't treated that good. I just decided long ago to make the best quality ammo I could,, to help me make more accurate kills at longer distances. My way of thinking was that if I make it the bast I can,, then if I miss,, I can't blame the ammo. Plus,, an animal deserves a clean kill.

BUT,, I am listening to all the EXCELLENT advice you, Lee & David have generously offered,, and I plan on trying out some of my blems. And,, my brass,, it's already prepped. And,, I do believe y'all. But,, I will do it myself,, and once I shoot a bunch,, I may just relax my "standards" a bit. But,, it's been my habit to do all this for years,, so it'll be hard to break some of it. I guess I'm a lot more rigid when it comes to my hunting ammo.

Off to the bench tonight to make some ammo!

[bradshaw]

Tyrone.... since you have a scoped Thompson/Center Contender in .357 Maximum, bag it @ 100 yards. To satisfy curiosity, you may want to try the Bradshaw-Martin 194 in .357 Mag brass, as well as the Maximum case. Win 296/H110 remains the all-round top powder to combine velocity with accuracy in the .357 & .44 magnums, and it may prove so with our bullet in the .357 Mag case. Win 296/H110 just doesn’t optimize accuracy in the .357 Maximum.

Bill Ruger, Jr., was ready to stretch the frame further and lengthen the Maximum case from 1.605” to 1,660-inch. Had we done so, I suspect IMR/H4227 would have continued its winning accuracy with heavy bullets, and Winchester 680 would have moved up as well. While 296/H110 slipped further down the accuracy scale. Speculation, of course, thanks to me, as I worried over thinning of the bottom strap. Cocerns, may I repeat, not shared by Bill, and Bill, Jr.

The scoped T/C Contender sure makes accuracy testing less laborious. Yet, not all Contender barrels made at T/C in Rochester, New Hampshire are equal. As Frank Scotto (elected IHMSA president after Elgin Gates died in 1988), and other smiths making unlimited category pistols for silhouette and hunting used to say, “The way they make barrels, it’s a wonder any of em shoot straight!” That piece of alchemy aside, some very accurate barrels came out of Thompson/Center. Of course, accuracy of a good barrel is compromised when a poor chamber is cut, or the LEADE is rough.

Point is, try the bullet, frosted nose and all, powder coat it, and try it in as many guns as you like. Report back. You’ll know more, and we’ll know more.
David Bradshaw

[contender]

Ok,,, I finally managed to light off a few of these magic MAXI pills yesterday evening.

I'd been teaching a class,,, and it ran over on time,, so my testing time got very limited due to darkness wanting to spoil my fun time. But,, I took out my Ruger Maxi,, settled down at 100 yds,, off the bench, and just to set me into the right feeling,, shot some older cast bullets I'd gotten from Dick long ago. (In the picture,, you can see my pasters. One wild shot actually punched the center.)
Well, after checking the target, pasting it up & making a few quick adjustments, I settled in & fired 2 cylinders full of the new Bradshaw/Martin bullets. It was twilight,, and seeing things wasn't the best,, but I figured; "Hey, in deer hunting this would be more normal!" My ageing eyes caused a bit of blurring,,, but the Fermin (2 dogs) front sight stood out BEAUTIFULLY!!!!!!!!!! The darker front post was EASY to see. The factory rear was nowhere near as distinct. It has the slot for putting in white outline but I'm undecided so far.
Now,, as my earlier posting alluded to,, I'm a bit picky with my casting and loading for serious stuff. So,, I chose to first shoot my "best" quality bullets. These were cast with no visible flaws. Weighed & sorted into a batch, pre PCing, of 192.0 to 192.9. I PCed them, I added the gas checks, on my Saeco sizer, then resized them in my Star push through to .358.
When I loaded them,, I used the 18.5 grns of IMR 4227. I used the Win. WSR primers. I deep seated them to about .030-.040 deep over the front band. (I didn't measure the brass & bullet OAL before final seating.) I used as gentle a roll over crimp. Of course,, my brass was all the same length, and had a light mouth chamfer. My primer pockets had been uniformed.

The results?

Well, look at the picture & even with that dern loose nut behind the trigger,, I managed what I feel was a pretty darn good group when compared to David & Lee! (Dern flyer!)



I will say that I experienced a couple of cases being harder to extract,, and it's POSSIBLE it's the chamber. I hadn't cleaned the gun before shooting the first bullets to sight things. And even a couple of those experienced the same issue. I came home,, and cleaned the gun,, and it got late so I haven't hit the cylinder with the pin gauges yet. I'll find out for sure.

So,, as noted,, that bullet is a WINNER in the Maxi!

I'm looking forward to trying it in my Contender with the scope to see how it shoots there! And,, of course,, I'm going to try my slightly blemished bullets to see if there is a noticeable difference. I just ran out of daylight.

[sixshot]

Good shooting Tyrone, that Bradshaw/Martin bullet, along with 18.5 grs of 4227 is a very accurate combination in the Ruger Maximum, you did good! I don't know why you don't just retire that 7/30 Waters & get some revolver kills under your belt............

Dick

[contender]

As mentioned,, I'm just starting to play with this bullet/gun combo. And it is proving to be exactly as David & Lee have shown it to be.

As for retiring the 7x30. There is actually a good reason I haven't retired it. I prefer the instant, drop in the tracks kill with the neck shots. My 7x30 gives me that. I have 2 reasons I prefer that shot. One, I don't ruin any meat. Two,, I don't have to track & follow any deer. Due to my property,, and how small an area I have is,, I have to deal with "neighbors" who hunt close by, and if a deer were to run even 30-50 yds in a couple of directions,, it would be on another person's property. Then there are the roads nearby,, that adds another variable. (Remember the first buck of my gun season had a poachers bullet hole in it.)
By using my 7x30, and making accurate neck shots,, I don't have to worry about chasing a mortally wounded deer onto other property. Heck,, it took a bit to get into my crossbow hunting here for the same worries. BUT,, less folks around during the bow season,, so I have less worries about my neighbors.

But don't fret it,, anytime I get a chance at hunting in a place I can follow a heart/lung shot critter,, I've been totin' my revolvers. My elk hunt to Colorado was planned around my El Dorado SA revolver.

[jamesautry]

I have read through this entire thread and this has renewed my interest in the 357 maximum. I have a 7 1/2" Ruger that needs to be used. Has anyone tried this bullet on deer or hogs? If so, how was the performance? I have used the 180 gr XTP mag with 4227 in the past and have had good results but I like the heavier weight and accuracy of this bullet.

[bradshaw]

Mar 3, 2020 15:27:19 GMT -5 jamesautry said:

I have read through this entire thread and this has renewed my interest in the 357 maximum. I have a 7 1/2" Ruger that needs to be used. Has anyone tried this bullet on deer or hogs? If so, how was the performance? I have used the 180 gr XTP mag with 4227 in the past and have had good results but I like the heavier weight and accuracy of this bullet.

*****

James.... to my knowledge deer and pigs have yet to be taken with our bullet. I would expect very good accuracy from the Hornady 180 XTP. And I would expect quite a difference between the Bradshaw-Martin 194 cast hard, and the powder coat we’ve been shooting. Baking to powder coat anneals----softens----alloy lead. Dick Thompson favors some plastic deformation on soft skin game, and I agree.
David Bradshaw

[jamesautry]

Are y'all still using the 25-1 lead tin alloy for the casting? I was taught to cast as a teenager by my dad and his best friend but that was back in the late eighties but I have an area to safely cast now so this bullet is calling my name.