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Post by 2 Dogs on Jan 7, 2017 11:59:02 GMT -5
More, I have gone round and round with some sixguns that I wanted desperately to shoot. The last one that comes to mind is that Performance Center Smith and Wesson 45 acp. I paid a bunch for it and it shot like crap. I firelapped it. It still shot like crap. I paid Alan Harton over 300 dollars to build a custom fixture to hold the barrel in his lathe in an attempt to correct the forcing cone. It still shot like crap. This after a couple of trips back to Smith and Wesson who ended up sending me a crummy target and said the gun was within spec's.
So much for trying to make chicken salad out of chicken $hit.
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Post by cherokeetracker on Jan 7, 2017 12:10:57 GMT -5
Fermin, I am not disappointed, and no,,,,, My head does not hurt. This is why we have these threads on this forum, and you have been one of the top 6 people that I learned so much about handguns from. That is also why I wanted to see what you would say. People like you for example who have so much more experience and knowledge, many times bring up things that I,, certainly do not think of.
I can see that there was an assumption on my part thinking that a barrel installed correctly would not have any constriction. Also,,,Like the discovery about the rifling not being deep enough on the (Pac NOR) barrel. Who would have thought?
Charles
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Post by 2 Dogs on Jan 7, 2017 12:18:21 GMT -5
Take a look at this picture I posted the other day in another thread. Almost immediately after I posted the picture I got a text message from one of my regular friends here on the forum who asked, "Is that 100 yards?"  The answer is ABSOLUTELY NOT! It was in fact shot at 55 yards on a windy day here in S. Texas. So then my buddy starts to remind me of Ross Seyfried and his quest for the MOA revolver. He wondered if this particular sixgun which I call Hoovers Hammer could make that mark. I thought about it for about .00005 of a second and said maybe but not by me. Why? Well, for a number of reasons. While it is possible, it would be very difficult and time consuming. Imagine casting pure linotype bullets and sorting them and determining which cylinders shot best in the sixgun and neck sizing and orienting cases and then trying to manage say a 10 power scope. On top of that, bench technique would have to be optimum and then here in S. Texas is the biggest impediment is the WIND. It frequently blows 15-20 here in the calm of night. With my 4X Leupold I can see at least 2 MOA of error at 100 yards looking at the grid of the target. I can keep most of my shots inside of 2 1/2" at 100 and am working now to keep them all in that circle. Even with my many precision rifles I often stop load development when I see 3/8" simply because of the way and conditions under which I hunt I cant hold any better. So, the point of all this is, some sixguns just shoot well. Some need a bit of help. Load the best ammunition you can. And get out there and shoot. |
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Post by 2 Dogs on Jan 7, 2017 12:25:51 GMT -5
Fermin, I am not disappointed, and no,,,,, My head does not hurt. This is why we have these threads on this forum, and you have been one of the top 6 people that I learned so much about handguns from. That is also why I wanted to see what you would say. People like you for example who have so much more experience and knowledge, many times bring up things that I,, certainly do not think of. I can see that there was an assumption on my part thinking that a barrel installed correctly would not have any constriction. Also,,,Like the discovery about the rifling not being deep enough on the (Pac NOR) barrel. Who would have thought? Charles[/quote I'm glad Charles. I feel like I have learned some things over the years. But like my friend Dick Thompson, now the big fight is with my eyesight. Still, I guess we could all sit at home and watch TV. |
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Post by sixshot on Jan 7, 2017 13:16:44 GMT -5
Going back up to my earlier post about high antimony & bullet hardness I've always said that for "me" I always shoot my bullets as soft as I can get good accuracy, if I get skidding or leading I move up in hardness but why would you shoot a bullet that is too hard? If accuracy is there that's where my BHN stays, there's no drawback in doing that, if you go up in velocity you have to go up in hardness, pretty simple. Also If you are dead set on shooting mostly cast bullets in good sixguns, Douglas barrels are hard to beat, not saying they are the best but I've never had a bad one & my son has barreled several guns for me, both rifle & handgun that has shot cast extremely well over the years so I don't change.
Again, those high antimony bullets can be a challenge to barrels & bullet lube, where you can correct it by using a lower antimony content but just water quench if needed. If you are using WW alloy that lacks a bit of tin (mine do) and I don't add tin, it's too expensive, then just run your furnace a bit on the hot side to get good fill out, been doing it for years with mostly 70/30 alloy & no tin with great results. Your mileage may differ.
Dick
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jsh
.327 Meteor
Posts: 884
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Post by jsh on Jan 7, 2017 14:42:17 GMT -5
"Load the best ammunition you can. And get out there and shoot."
Well said.
I recall some discussion on your issues with the 625 PC.
My 625JM was about the biggest disappointment I have ever had in a brand new gun. I won't go through all the grief I had with it, but should never have been shipped as I received it.
I bought it with bullseye in mind. Being stainless I figured the barrel would be iffy to make me happy with cast. It was rough but I was bound and determined not to fire lap, as this was a some what new and questionable by me procedure at the time. I ran several hundred jacketed through it. Nothing measurable changed. However in cleaning it "felt" different.
There is something to cover is "feel". Kinda like running a piece of equipment "by the seat of your pants". On firearms,somethings I can "feel" but it can't be measured or if it is, it shows no change. Rifle triggers come to mind. A good 2-3 lb trigger can be better than a poor 4 ounce trigger.
My 625 feels better today than it did when new for sure. I have roughly 8-10 k through it. This is over all, action and cleaning of the bore and cylinders. It had a slight thread choke, and all the things we want sized to what we deem proper are still not what I prefer. However I have found THE load it likes and I can get along with for punching holes in paper.
I fooled with alloys to the point I was changing to many things at a time. Thus losing track of what worked and what didn't. (one needs to take care in this area for sure!)
I went to what I didn't want to, as I was told by several that shoot registered BE and have for years. Lino or mono type will solve all my problems. I played with the lino for one season, then not all of it. The first ten in timed fire were fine, but not good or great. Always got the occasional flyer, and sometimes off the target, it is me. I was getting some leading. Once it starts it only gets worse. So, off the line and run a quick bronze brush and a patch every time between relays, a real pita. And for sure not a good confidence builder. Scores were terrible. Gave up on the lino.
I was all set to fire lap. Pretty close to dead soft cast up and ready to kill or cure it so to speak. I had read that you just wanted them to exit the barrel, no more no less. So I came up with some to try. Would rather stick one at home than at the range and try to deal with squib with no tools. Shot several loadings that were way reduced, finding one that was good enough. Back to the bench figuring I am going to have a leaded up mess. ZERO, zilch, clean as a pin. I am really puzzled now.
Cast up several hundred. FYI I am using an accurate molds 45-170W. Alloy was 50-50 or there abouts. Zero leading with 100 at a setting. Success.
Fast forward a couple of years.
Never to be happy and always having to tinker I tried the powder coating. I ate pie for over a week twice a day just to get enough cool whip bowls to make these powder coated bullets.
Got all my stuff together after reading Dick and Jeff's input on said subject.
All went well and I coated quite a bunch. Loaded them as coated and as cast. My results on paper were not making me fell warm and fuzzy. Cylinder and bore was fine. Gun was cleaner than ever externally as well. I was using my 50-50 alloy. I tried sizing at .451 and .452, no luck.
I am still working on this one and will return to PCing. I dont know if the powder coating is changing something and I need to tinker with the load or baking is making the bullets harder. I have several thoughts.
But after reading and thinking because of this thread,mi am going to cast up some dead soft and powder coat. My thinking, because of the cylinder and bore size, dead soft may slug up and grab better onto the shallow rifling?
On the thread choke thing. My local SW guru with the magic wand has fixed several in a different way. Rather than shaving a full turn off of the barrel shoulder, he takes just enough of to relieve the pressure. Now though when torqued down the from sight is clocked. Rather than fight that, he jigs it up and uses permanent lock tite. No thread choke. He assures me he has had zero problems and has run tens of thousand of rounds through dozens of SW without any of them coming loose. A soak in acetone, then some dry heat from a heat gun and the barrel is off. Mind you the shoulder gap at the frame is pretty much unnoticeable.
Those tinkering with any of their toys,KEEP NOTES! I mean good notes, and kept on hand in a good binder. I suggest not to use a spiral notebook as they will get dog eared and raggedy pretty quick. A good hard back lab type book can be had cheaper than a good magazine. If you abbreviate, make sure and note what it means on that page some place. Trust me, between the range and the ride home you can and will forget a lot. A bunch of targets with good groups or poor groups with no info written on them is of little use. A phone with a camera is about the best invention since sliced bread also.
Jeff
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lah
.30 Stingray
Posts: 432 
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Post by lah on Jan 7, 2017 15:22:14 GMT -5
On top of that, bench technique would have to be optimum. AMEN AMEN AMEN |
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Post by sheriff on Jan 7, 2017 15:40:03 GMT -5
'So, the point of all this is, some sixguns just shoot well. Some need a bit of help. Load the best ammunition you can. And get out there and shoot.'
While all the information posted thus far is GOOD, this one statement says it all.
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jsh
.327 Meteor
Posts: 884
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Post by jsh on Jan 7, 2017 20:48:20 GMT -5
'So, the point of all this is, some sixguns just shoot well. Yes and no. I used to say,you get what you pay for. That is not always true. And ones definition of "well" varies from the next. I like to stretch their legs so to speak. Yet on the other hand, 50 yards and under is a great confidence builder. I have found ones subconscious to be worse. Once you have doubts you or it can do it, you have a hard time getting it out of your head. Some need a bit of help. Yup. And as Fermin noted, for the most part each one of these wheel guns has its preference. Opinions are like elbows, everyone has a couple. For the most part, a generic load give generic results, depending on what one expects in the accuracy department. IMHO, and I am pretty coarse but don't mean it that way. If it won't shoot into at least 2" at 25', either fix it or send it down the road. Load the best ammunition you can. And get out there and shoot.' While all the information posted thus far is GOOD, this one statement says it all. All the gadgets, measuring and analism in loading technique won't make up for, poor size, mixed lots of cases,mediocre cast bullets, bad lubes, etc. One should also keep an open mind on critiquing. I find it the older I get, the less I like to hear it. Thinking on the, some so guns just shoot well thoughts. An FA or a SW out of the performance center is no guarantee either. One can spend $$$$! and still not shoot better than they did with said stock gun. I have seen this again and again,no matter what the sport. Practice and more practice, there are some things you have to be willing to change or at least try. I have never seen any one spend enough money to buy enough X's in a match to win. You can't buy, ability or determination. Yet some continue to try to pound the square peg into the round hole. |
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Fowler
.401 Bobcat
Posts: 3,670
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Post by Fowler on Jan 8, 2017 1:05:11 GMT -5
Ross Seyfried told the story that when he won the IPSC world championships he had beat his 2 guns nearly to death shooting the snot out of them. Neither would hold 6" groups at 50 yards any more, the sights were filled with locktight just so they would make it through the match and neither hit to the sights exactly right. But while everyone else was spending a fortune marking guns to beat the world he was shooting the snot out of his. He was over heard before the match mentioning to a friend the web of his hand was a bit sore from shooting and this smart ass leaned over and said "gotta shoot more and toughen it up mate". He looked him in the eye and said his gun had fired 300,000 rounds that year, how much should he shoot? Long story short, he pissed him off and a pissed of Mr. Seyfried was twice as good as a happy one and he went on to win handily.
All we can do is build the best guns we can, load the best ammo we can, and shoot intelligently to better ourselves. As long as we are safe, having fun, and hopefully learning and bettering ourselves it's all we can really do.
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Post by sixshot on Jan 8, 2017 5:15:42 GMT -5
I wonder how many of us really understand how hard it would be to be dedicated enough to fire basically 1,000 rounds a day for a year! Yikes! I thought 2005 was a busy year when I ran 54,000 rounds down the barrel of my S&W 610.
Dick
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lah
.30 Stingray
Posts: 432
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Post by lah on Jan 8, 2017 9:22:56 GMT -5
I wonder how many of us really understand how hard it would be to be dedicated enough to fire basically 1,000 rounds a day for a year! Yikes! I thought 2005 was a busy year when I ran 54,000 rounds down the barrel of my S&W 610. Dick Dick you would have fired 148 rounds per day if you fired everyday of the year. Assuming you didn't shoot everyday meaning you had days over the 148 rounds. Rounds down the tube & attention to detail is where is it. There are weeks I fire a 1000 rounds but there are weeks I certainly don't. You surely were busy. |
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Post by contender on Jan 8, 2017 9:34:39 GMT -5
Lots of truth in spending time SHOOTING a lot. In discussions with the worlds top USPSA shooters,,it's not uncommon to hear numbers in the 50,000 to 100,000 per year. It takes a lot of range time,,, with serious practice to make them the top shooters they are. But,,, just blasting ammo isn't the way to become good,,, it's GOOD practice and doing it a lot that makes it work.
I burn through around 10,000 rounds a year,,,, combined,,, and I feel like I'm just barely doing anything compared to some. Some years,,, a lot more has gone downrange,,, but in the last few years,,, it's dropped off.
Load good ammo, practice consistency, and learn from the mistakes you make. Do so often enough & things will come together.
For many years,,, when locals would ask me about my handgun hunting & reloading etc,,, I'd say; "I like to eliminate as many mechanical issues before I have to deal with the loose nut behind the trigger."
A well built gun, a proper action job, good ammo, and then practice, practice, practice.
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Post by cherokeetracker on Jan 8, 2017 13:14:12 GMT -5
I wonder how many of us really understand how hard it would be to be dedicated enough to fire basically 1,000 rounds a day for a year! Yikes! I thought 2005 was a busy year when I ran 54,000 rounds down the barrel of my S&W 610. Dick I can only imagine shooting that much Dick. I did shoot 1000 to 1300 each month for about 9 months. I did this with my Colt 1911 and was buying cases of ammo. Shooting a single action is different so more ( different) practice is required. By that statement I mean grip is different. SO,,,,, the same statement works with a revolver. Would you agree with me that in order to improve your skills with a particular pistol, you need to practice with that pistol? Not just shoot in general, or keep shooting any mixture of ones pistols.
Charles
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Post by sixshot on Jan 8, 2017 16:57:28 GMT -5
Charlie, the year I shot 54,000 rounds almost every round was either in competition or practicing for competition & it was with 3 different 610 S&W revovlers in 40 caliber, actually 10mm but I shot moon clipped 40's in them. I also cast every single bullet and loaded them on a Dillon 650 & 550 that I had. The following year I fired 32,000 rounds.
I believe very much that practicing with one gun, especially with one gun is the way to go if you are competing. The balance & swing of the gun in USPSA is very important on swinging, turning & spinning targets & many, many times you are doing it on the run.
Getting back to the topic at hand, I remember one time World Champion & Grand Master Todd Jarrett said he fired 30,000 rounds in 6 weeks once getting ready for the world championships! I also saw him shoot an El Presidente in UNDER 3 seconds! That's 3 targets with your back to all 3 & your hands are at surrender positon. You turn, fire 2 shots on each target, do a RELOAD & fire 2 more shots on each target. Yup, he did it under 3 seconds, with a semi auto.
Dick
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