Reading Sixgun Sign

[jsh]

Size is king, I think we all pretty much agree on that.
So, then there is alloy and lube, no particular second or third.
Where does alloy fail, or did the lube fail?

There is a LOT of head scratching over such subjects.
I have had some odd goings on happen that are real similar to other local "revolter" cast bullet shooters. Groups going horizontal rather than vertical is the most common. It is also not one just one caliber, some are with similar designs. The one common is we all use the same lube, at least the base. Some have been "doctored" some not.
I have tried different sizes and different designs. After a bit of reading on the link above, I am going to swap lubes and see what if any changes occur.

I do pay attention to hardness. I was told for years Lino type. I have since backed way way off on hardness. Several of us decided we were seeing skidding. So we went with a tougher softer alloy. They seemed to grab the throat better along with what ever slugging up they could do.

Short of doing as Mr Bradshaw shooting into a 55 gallon barrel of water or a swimming pool, I have not recovered any acceptable specimens to study or draw any type of conclusions on. The proof has been on my targets of the steel animal type.

My FA 357, was acquired with a custom LBT mold made for it along with several thousand lubed,checked and sized bullets. He has no reconc of what the alloy or the lube was. It shoots the heck out of 39's lol. I need to make notes on these along with hardness for future reference when I get these shot up in the next 10'years or so.
FYI I did try some lip stick bullets coated with harbor freight red. I noticed nothing to make me move to them exclusively. The Ruger 357 max liked some and hated others.
Enough of my jabber for now.

Fermin,thanks for getting this type of thread started. One always needs food for thought. Some times I think us casters make things tougher than need be.
Jeff

[2 Dogs]

JEFF, I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO COMMENT ON YOUR EXCELLENT POST FOR SOME TIME NOW AND JUST GETTING TO IT. PLEASE DONT TAKE THE ALL CAPS AS YELLING!!

Size is king, I think we all pretty much agree on that. SIZE IS KING, BUT NOT ONLY THE SIZE OF THE BULLET, BUT THE DIAMETER OF THE CYLINDER THROATS AND HAVING NO RESTRICTION IN THE BORE. ANY OF THESE WHEN NOT PROPERLY SIZED CAN CAUSE GRIEF WITH CAST.
So, then there is alloy and lube, no particular second or third.
Where does alloy fail, or did the lube fail? I BELIEVE ALLOY HARDNESS SIMPLY DEPENDS ON WHAT YOUR SIXGUN WILL TOLERATE. AS TO THE LUBE, IT IS MY OPINION, THAT AS THE LEAD BULLET IS BEING PUSHED DOWN THE BORE, THE LUBE GROOVES ARE UPSETTING AND FORCING THE LUBE TO FORM A NON FRICTION BARRIER BETWEEN THE BULLET AND THE BARREL STEEL. IF THE LUBE ISNT DOING THIS, THAT WOULD BE A FAIL. A GOOD WAY TO TELL YOU THAT THE LUBE IS WORKING IS TO SIMPLY LOOK AT YOUR MUZZLE AND THE INSIDE OF THE BARREL.

There is a LOT of head scratching over such subjects. ESPECIALLY WHERE EXTREME COLD OR HOT IS A FACTOR!
I have had some odd goings on happen that are real similar to other local "revolter" cast bullet shooters. Groups going horizontal rather than vertical is the most common. It is also not one just one caliber, some are with similar designs. The one common is we all use the same lube, at least the base. Some have been "doctored" some not.
I have tried different sizes and different designs. After a bit of reading on the link above, I am going to swap lubes and see what if any changes occur. HORIZONTAL ERROR CAN ALSO BE ATTRIBUTED TO EYES THAT NO LONGER BRING THE SIGHTS INTO SHARP FOCUS OR INCONSISTENT GRIP DURING IGNITION AND THE RECOIL SIGNATURE. I CANT SAY THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN A LUBE CHANGE BRING ON HORIZONTAL ERROR. I WONDER WHAT THE LONG RANGE RIFLE CREW THINK ABOUT THIS.

I do pay attention to hardness. I was told for years Lino type. I have since backed way way off on hardness. ME TOO. Several of us decided we were seeing skidding. BOB KELL ATTRIBUTED IT TO TOO MUCH ANTIMONY IN THE WHEEL WEIGHTS. So we went with a tougher softer alloy. They seemed to grab the throat better along with what ever slugging up they could do. I BELIEVE YOU ARE EXACTLY CORRECT HERE. THE TASK SIMPLY BECOMES TO DISCOVER WHAT HARDNESS YOUR BORE WILL TOLERATE. I WONDER IF EVEN A REALLY GOOD BARREL WOULD BENEFIT FROM A COUPLE DOZEN ROUNDS OF GENTLE FIRELAPPING?

Short of doing as Mr Bradshaw shooting into a 55 gallon barrel of water or a swimming pool, I have not recovered any acceptable specimens to study or draw any type of conclusions on. The proof has been on my targets of the steel animal type. REMEMBER KEITH SHOT HIS INTO SNOW BANKS AND RECOVERED THE BULLETS IN THE SPRING!

My FA 357, was acquired with a custom LBT mold made for it along with several thousand lubed,checked and sized bullets. He has no reconc of what the alloy or the lube was. A HARDNESS TESTER MIGHT GIVE YOU SOME CLUE. It shoots the heck out of 39's lol. I need to make notes on these along with hardness for future reference when I get these shot up in the next 10'years or so.
FYI I did try some lip stick bullets coated with harbor freight red. I noticed nothing to make me move to them exclusively. The Ruger 357 max liked some and hated others. AS I HAVE A COUPLE OF LIFETIMES OF BULLET LUBE ALREADY AND DONT REALLY NEED ANYMORE "STUFF" IN MY SHOP I HAVENT REALLY WORKED WITH THE PC BULLETS. I DO KNOW AND TRUST TANK HOOVER AND SIXSHOT DICK THOMPSON ENOUGH TO KNOW THE PC BULLETS ARE ALL THEY SAY.
Enough of my jabber for now. NOT JABBER, AN EXCELLENT POST. THIS IS HOW WE LEARN NOT TO GET TO WHERE WE CONSIDER OURSELVES "EXPERTS"!! LOL

Fermin,thanks for getting this type of thread started. One always needs food for thought. Some times I think us casters make things tougher than need be. PERHAPS, BUT IT IS A WORTHWHILE STRUGGLE TO ME.
Jeff

[bradshaw]

Fermin and Jeff.... beaucoup thanks for articulating personal experience with the stormy subject of cast bullets. Fermin notes Elmer Keith fired bullets into snow, to recover in spring. I did the same during a journey to find out what makes a revolver tick. So much for theory: either believe it, or test it. Factories don’t get everything right, and when they don’t get everything right they resort to political answers. The SHARPSHOOTER SHOOTS for ANSWERS. Snow perfectly preserves handgun bullets and most rifle bullets. It is astounding how fast snow can stop a bullet----but don’t count on it!

I was hard into sixgun accuracy long before Handgun Silhouette came along. Competition, however, drove the need to sort out differences between guns and differences between bullets. Sometimes bullets fired into the snow (parallel to the snowfield) verily “float” to the top. More often, some bullets appear after one or two melts. The last are found on the ground or flattened winter grass in late spring. Anytime you have a chance to study the engraving of the lands round the circumference, there is a reason it is perfect or asymmetrical. This shooting lead me to study forcing cones. And groove diameter. And combinations of dimensions. To study the bullets and the guns...

You guys are doing a good job,
David Bradshaw

[2 Dogs]

Jan 6, 2017 11:42:42 GMT -5 bradshaw said:

Fermin and Jeff.... beaucoup thanks for articulating personal experience with the stormy subject of cast bullets. Fermin notes Elmer Keith fired bullets into snow, to recover in spring. I did the same during a journey to find out what makes a revolver tick. So much theory: either believe it or test it. Factories don’t get everything right, and when they don’t they resort to political answers. The SHARPSHOOTER resorts to SHOOTING ANSWERS. Snow preserves handgun bullets and most rifle bullets perfectly. It is astounding how fast snow can stop a bullet1 But don’t count on it!

I was hard into sixgun accuracy long before Handgun Silhouette came along. Competition, however, drove the need to sort out differences between guns and differences between bullets. Sometimes bullets fired into the snow (parallel to the snowfield) verily “float” to to top. More often, some bullets appear after one or tow melts. The last are found on the ground or flattened winter grass in late spring. Anytime you have a chance to study the engraving of the land round the circumference, there is a reason it is perfect or asymmetrical. This shooting is what lead me to study forcing cones. And groove diameter. And combinations of dimensions. The bullets and the guns...

You guys are doing a good job,
David Bradshaw

Thanks David for the vote of confidence. I too have wondered often on the subject of the forcing cone itself. There as you know are some pretty good size forcing cones being cut these days. Alan Harton has built me a number of guns, some with almost NO forcing cone. This can be done where the chamber alignment is precisely cut as you know. These guns also showed very good velocity as well as accuracy.

[jsh]

Fermin, pm responded too.
I appreciate the response greatly.
I can scratch out 40's on a regular basis with FLGC's, but where is the fun in that?

I am keeping an eye on cylinders for sure and have some work to do to a couple for sure.
On the lube, do you look at it as a hydraulic type seal?
I have been using Felix lube for a number of years. I made a batch of some Bens red and have some loaded and in various calibers.

David many thanks for your input. You were like a "Sasquatch" to me for many years. I had some sightings, and sign of you in years past, then there was a big long dry spell. I was on the search for a 375 super mag when I landed here. Then I saw "sign" of you once again. I, and I know many others feel very fortunate to have you here.
Still no 375, yet. Do have the 357 max and 44 silhouette guns acquired from mentor shooters I have shot with.
Jeff

[2 Dogs]

Jan 6, 2017 13:52:27 GMT -5 jsh said:

Fermin, pm responded too. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
I appreciate the response greatly.
I can scratch out 40's on a regular basis with FLGC's, but where is the fun in that? 40'S?

I am keeping an eye on cylinders for sure and have some work to do to a couple for sure. ARE YOU REFERRING TO THE SIZE OF THE THROATS?
On the lube, do you look at it as a hydraulic type seal? I AM NOT REALLY SURE WHAT EXACTLY TO CALL IT, BUT MANY TIMES I CAN LOOK IN A BORE AND SEE THAT THE RIFLING IS SHINY AND CLEAN WITH A NICE LUBE STAR ON THE MUZZLE.
I have been using Felix lube for a number of years. I made a batch of some Bens red and have some loaded and in various calibers. MY FRIEND, WHO MOSTLY POSTS ON CASTBOOLITS.COM, LLOYD SMALE SENT ME A PRETTY GOOD SIZED MARGARINE TUB OF A VERSION OF THE FELIX LUBE. LASTED ME A GOOD WHILE AND DEFINITELY GOOD STUFF. THE ONLY LUBES I REALLY DIDNT LIKE WAS THE REALLY STICKY STUFF. I PREFER TO USE A LUBE THAT HAS TO BE HEATED. LARGELY BECAUSE S. TEXAS IS JUST SO HOT. I AM USING THE SAME LUBE AS DICK THOMPSON ANYMORE, BUT I CANT THINK OF THE NAME OF IT RIGHT NOW.

David many thanks for your input. You were like a "Sasquatch" to me for many years. I had some sightings, and sign of you in years past, then there was a big long dry spell. I was on the search for a 375 super mag when I landed here. Then I saw "sign" of you once again. I, and I know many others feel very fortunate to have you here.
Still no 375, yet. Do have the 357 max and 44 silhouette guns acquired from mentor shooters I have shot with.
Jeff

[sixshot]

The lube Fermin is referring to is Lars Lube or Carnuba Red Label Lube. He used to be right here in Pocatello just a few minutes away & I bought lots of it but now he's down in Arkansas I think. I was at his place one day & he had 2-3 ton's of Bee's Wax he had just picked up over in Nevada. That Red Label Lube is good stuf & is a harder lube that works well in the warmer climates yet does a very good job of keeping leading to an absolute minimum. Very good pricing & service as well. I think his first name is Glenn, haven't bought any for a long time but I have a lot of it on hand, just haven't used it since switching to powder coat.As Fermin mentioned, that lube star is important & also bullets with a high antimony content can cause problems, that antimony causes surface friction in the barrel so keep that in mind. Trust me, bullet hardness can be overdone.

Second the motion of having David Bradshaw on here, & right now I've got plenty of backstop material in my front yard for bullet testing!!

Dick

[jsh]

Fermin, I should have guessed you were buds with Lloyd, I have quizzed him a lot in the past. A lot of knowledge and very helpful.
As you mention on the lubes, the "discussions" that have transpired may very well have something to do with what your weather and conditions are in your part of the country.

My batch of FWFL was also made with that wax out of Nevada. That stuff I believe got analyzed over at artful bullet,I don't recall for sure. What I do recall was they said it was probably some of THE best base for bullet lube there will ever be.
I didn't want to have to fool with a pistol lube and a rifle lube, that was what lead me to FWFL. Oh how I wish I had printed and saved all of the emails and pm's I had with Felix. That would have given a lot of input to new folks, and even more for the rest of us. Felix was an interesting guy. Dunno if Zeus knew him, he was involved in the engineering of the Lewis and Clark viaduct and some project on the plaza here in KC.

I always see Lars lube held in high regards.

Dick, I have not given up on the powder coating. You were the one that got me going on it to begin with. I used the harbor freight powder coating. I think it is an ok powder to try, but it sure seems there are a lot better out there after a bunch of folks jumped on that wagon. I am sure I will revisit it as time allows.
I refuse to use it for my 45 ACP bullseye loads though. I use Bullseye and FWFL, it smokes the line up pretty good. I catch a lot of flack over the smoke. I told them they keep hollering I will work up some pyrodex loads., lol.

On the lube stars, it will also sure show a bad crown. My K31 Swiss had a burr that I had never noticed. Found it after a match when lube stars were being discussed.

[lah]

It is important to note here that the FA sometimes can have a "abrupt" transition from chamber to throat. So there is another variable to be looked at as well.

Yes abrupt is the word.

[sixshot]

Jeff, I use other powders as well to PC with but I do have good luck with Harbor Freight Red although you have to use it a bit different than the better brands of PC like [e-mail] or Powder by the Pound. Harbor Freight Red will not give you full coverage if not done correctly.

Dick

[Rimfire69]

There is not many places that combine this much background and experiance on the same page for the rest of us to read and learn from. We are an extremely fortunate bunch to have such knowlegable members openly sharing information, thank you and don't stop creating these great threads that have been popping up lately.

2 Dogs, you wondered if even a really good barrel could benefit from a gentle firelap. I think so, its a clean , through pass from end to end at roughly the same speed as opposed to a hand lap that stops on each end and changes direction. Done correctly, shouldn't it be the final finish on a high end custom hand lapped barrel, or any barrel for that matter.
If not, explain the down side.

As for the snow catching bullets, a buddy and I spent an afternoon years ago target shooting in his snow covered hay field that sloped upward all the way to a bush line. Later in the week after a couple days of hard chinook winds we were feeding cows in that same field and that hillside was glimmering. This was hard drifted snow you could walk on, so we did and picked up a dozen or so
various high power jacketed rifle bullets. They were just about all perfect specimens, they looked like they'd been caught out of mid-air and layed out on the hard snow.

[cherokeetracker]

I am not Fermin nor do I want to speak for him but IMHO when a smith installs a premium barrel ( Correctly ) There should be no need to fire lap a barrel. The barrel should already be polished enough as to not NEED anything. Let's see what Fermin says,,,

Charles

[Rimfire69]

All answers will be good answers, this is exactly what I'm looking for is everybodies varyed thoughts and personal opinions, thanks.

[2 Dogs]

Jan 7, 2017 9:11:36 GMT -5 Rimfire69 said:

There is not many places that combine this much background and experiance on the same page for the rest of us to read and learn from. We are an extremely fortunate bunch to have such knowlegable members openly sharing information, thank you and don't stop creating these great threads that have been popping up lately. THE BIG TRICK IS NOT TO PAINT YOURSELF INTO THE "EXPERT" CORNER. AS SOON AS YOU THINK YOU GOT IT ALL DOWN, SOMETHING WILL BITE YOU ON THE BUTT. THE TRUTH IS, THERE ARE SOME THINGS WE DON'T KNOW. THIS IS MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE A SEARCH FOR SUCCESS.

2 Dogs, you wondered if even a really good barrel could benefit from a gentle firelap. I think so, its a clean , through pass from end to end at roughly the same speed as opposed to a hand lap that stops on each end and changes direction. Done correctly, shouldn't it be the final finish on a high end custom hand lapped barrel, or any barrel for that matter. NO, I FULLY AGREE. JUST BECAUSE A BARREL DOES NOT GIVE ANY INDICATION OF RESTRICTION, AT LEAST THAT SOMEONE CAN EASILY MEASURE, DOES NOT MEAN THAT PARTICULAR BARREL WOULD NOT BENEFIT FROM A BIT OF A POLISH OR FOR LACK OF A BETTER TERM "SMOOTHING" OUT.
If not, explain the down side.

As for the snow catching bullets, a buddy and I spent an afternoon years ago target shooting in his snow covered hay field that sloped upward all the way to a bush line. Later in the week after a couple days of hard chinook winds we were feeding cows in that same field and that hillside was glimmering. This was hard drifted snow you could walk on, so we did and picked up a dozen or so
various high power jacketed rifle bullets. They were just about all perfect specimens, they looked like they'd been caught out of mid-air and layed out on the hard snow.

THATS PRETTY COOL STUFF. WE DONT GET MUCH SNOW DOWN HERE. THERES WATER TANKS THAT WOULD PROBABLY STOP A BULLET PRETTY NICELY BUT WHO WANTS TO WADE INTO 4-5 OF GREEN SLIME TO RECOVER BULLETS....?

[2 Dogs]

Jan 7, 2017 10:21:00 GMT -5 cherokeetracker said:

I am not Fermin nor do I want to speak for him but IMHO when a smith installs a premium barrel ( Correctly ) There should be no need to fire lap a barrel. The barrel should already be polished enough as to not NEED anything. Let's see what Fermin says,,,

Charles

Gosh Charles, the last thing I want to do here is disappoint you. But the truth is the Smith installing the premium barrel is almost certainly a different guy than the guy who actually made the barrel. I HAVE BOUGHT GUNS BUILT BY SMITHS TO INCLUDE REEDER, FA, BOWEN, CLEMENTS AND SOME OTHER TOP NAMES THAT HAD BARRELS THAT DISPLAYED RESTRICTION. In every case, a little fire lapping cured the restriction issue and the guns shot quite well and handled cast bullets very nicely. Now should the smith measure the barrel before he sends it out? Maybe, but be prepared to pay for any time he spends.

In my own case, Alan Harton tells me that I am the only customer who has ever returned to him a sixgun that "was not accurate enough". I am referring to my custom No.5 44 special. While there was no restriction I could detect in that sixgun, and yes, we did check it beforehand, I was getting some skidding. We pulled that barrel (Pac Nor) and discovered that the rifling was not as deep as a Douglas blank. So we made a new barrel and viola!! It was a tackdriver. But, here is the rub, at that time (2007?), I was shooting the hardest bullets I could make. Had I had the experience that I have now, a less hard bullet or at least one with less antimony content could have made all the difference in the world.

At one time I used to load my ammunition in bulk. Hey, Taffin says 7.5 grains of Unique is a great load for this or that and Taffin got it from Skeeter who got it from Elmer so it has to be right. What I have proven to myself after THOUSANDS of rounds without a doubt is that some sixguns will shoot well with pretty much anything and some others will not. I no longer load in bulk period. I may load a quantity of ammunition for a particular sixgun, but only AFTER I have tested it in that sixgun. Will that particular load shoot in more than one sixgun? Of course. From there it is a simple matter to mark that lot of ammunition for whatever sixguns or carbines want to shoot it. I try to make sure before hand that I am dealing with a sixgun that has had any dimensional issues cured beforehand.

Does your head hurt now?