100 Yards & Iron Sights

[jsh]

That is some outstanding shooting off handed. Hope you play the bullseye game also.

I need to get my FA out and give it a go. Better get my picture posting abilities figured out.
Jeff

[Joe S.]

I am obviously not Mr. Bradshaw but i have had good accuracy from the XTP in everything I've fired them in.

I also like a plain base (as opposed to beveled base) cast bullet.

Dec 23, 2016 20:16:55 GMT -5 Alaskan454 said:

Mr. Bradshaw, I remember you cautioned the same about the bevel base 300gr I was previously using. These are Dardas bullets which have always done well at 25 and 50 yards in my guns, but the extra 50 yards is a good bit of air to travel through. What are your thoughts on the Hornady XTPs? I have standard and magnum 300gr bullets in my inventory right now. I might give those a try when I do this again.

The front sight was kindly gifted to me by a fellow forum member when I ordered the FA a few years ago. I agree it might be the same sight without the globe. It provides an excellent sight picture.

Joe - Thank you for the kind words, I see some of the tiny groups posted here and it keeps me motivated to work on my skills.

[bradshaw]

What are your thoughts on the Hornady XTPs? I have standard and magnum 300gr bullets in my inventory right now.

The front sight was kindly gifted to me by a fellow forum member when I ordered the FA a few years ago. I agree it might be the same sight without the globe. It provides an excellent sight picture.----alaskan454

*****

Ron Reiber, ballistician at Hornady until a couple decades ago when he went to work for the Hodgdon’s, chose the Hornady 300 XTP as a primary hunting bullet in his Freedom Arms .454 Casull. He would not do so without excellent accuracy and performance afield. As to Hornady accuracy, huge volumes of Hornady bullets contended with huge volumes of Sierra bullets on the firing lines of handgun silhouette. Many IHMSA silhouetters used Hornady in helping to earn respect from rifle hunters. Persons with young gonads should know there was a time rifle hunters held the handgun hunter in contempt. It is my impression that the serious handgunner drove awe, fear, and envy into the heart of the rifle hunter whom, himself lacked the intensity and talent to be a sharpshooter.

Memory says another IHMSA All-American, Dave Logosz, hunted the North Country with a Freedom Arms M83 .454 Casull cylindered up with the Hornady 300 XTP. Dave Logosz is no stranger to shooting long, from sniper rifle to IHMSA to hunting with rifle and handgun, with a considerable dose of reaching out with black powder Sharps rifles. Which means you had better learn a feel for drop. learn to dope wind off the hairs on your neck. Reckon both Reiber and Logosz knew how to put their foot in the carburetor.

The little step on the bottom of your Freedom Arms blade sight pinches the FA globe to the sight base when your tighten the front sight screw. Freedom Arms supplies target blades with and without the step for the globe. Your front blade may have been made for a different caliber or barrel length, as height of the blade is normally proportioned to the ISGW (Iron Sight Gun Works) micro-rear sight, The ISGW sits higher than the Dick Casull sight on your Premier Grade M83. You can purchase the globe from Freedom Arms. Also appears your revolver has a trigger stop. While I would have no use for a trigger stop on a Ruger, I prefer one on the Freedom Arms. IHMSA All-American Russ Troup asked that very question----do you like a trigger stop on the Model 83?----the answer is Yes.
David Bradshaw

[Alaskan454]

USPSA revolver nationals is coming up so I went to the range this morning to chrono my loads for the S&W 929 and 625 (back-up gun if the 929 breaks).  Figured I might as well shoot some video while I was there.

The 929 was running a 151 gr Blue Bullet over 2.9 gr of Titegroup for 865 +/- 9 fps.

The 625 was running a 230 gr Blue Bullet over 4.2 gr of Trail Boss for 648 +/- 11 fps.

I've worked over both guns pretty well so they have DAO pulls of 5 1/4 and 6 lbs respectively.  My goal for the end of this year is to go 8 for 8 with the 929 on that 10" plate.  It has proven to be quite the nemesis!

[Lee Martin]

5-shots, 100 yards bench rested. Center hold.
United Sporting Arms Seville - .375 SuperMag
Bullet – 245 gr FP, cast, GC
Powder – 22.5 IMR 4227
Brass - .375 Win trimmed to 1.605”
Primer - CCI 350
Velocity – 1,550 fps
Target size – 12 x 14” (much easier to sight against than a 10” round paper plate). Color is reset with flat white spray paint.



This Seville has an aftermarket barrel, target crown, and Magna-Porting. It was also etched with the IHMSA logo from the factory.





My benchrest arrangement consists of a Bald Eagle rest. The top is covered with a piece of leather to protect the bag (not shown here). I float my hands and grip, but support my elbow on the rear sandbag.



-Lee
www.singleactions.com
"Chasing perfection five shots at a time"

[Joe S.]

Great shootin!

[bradshaw]

Lee.... not sure a piano could stand up to getting played with a 245 grain flat point .375 at 1550 fps. Might have to shoot two pianos back to back.

Excellent shooting from your Seville .375 Super Mag and I agree that the 12”x14” vertical rectangle makes it easier from the distance of a football field to fix your sight picture. As opposed to the smaller and round picnic plate.
David Bradshaw

[jsh]

Lee, what do you see comparable to the 375 super mag?

Did you have any pressure spike issues? I had read that it could get spikey when approaching the top end. That was in the early years and we have way more powders to choose from, along with better equipment.

That is the cartridge I was chasing when I found this site a few years back.
I have played with the 38-55 and 375WW, in rifles and like them both.

After input from folks here, the advice was to try the 41 mag, which I did and that opened up a whole new can of worms.

I have thoughts of a wheel gun, but have had thoughts of a 10" or shorter barrel for a TC.

The 375 (38-55 and 375WW class)has some characteristics of a 6.5 projectile, on a larger bore of coarse. Sectional density, and some sleekness.

Jeff

[bradshaw]

"Lee, what do you see comparable to the 375 super mag?

Did you have any pressure spike issues? I had read that it could get spikey when approaching the top end."

Jeff

*****

Jeff.... a few .375 Super Mags have been blown. To your first question, although we’re about to mix your questions together, ln its ideal condition, there is no cartridge comparable to Elgin Gates’ .375 Super Mag. The .375 SM carried a lot of downrange clout, especially launching a pointed bullet. That is why champion Eric King took it into the salty 500 meter game, where most revolver rounds and revolver bullets suffer either frightful trajectory or lack the meatball effect necessary to topple the ram. For this discussion it is good to remember the critical back-to-belly measurement on rams is one foot----12 inches. Now drop a bullet at a 25-degree angle at the ram and watch the back-to-belly measurement shrink to something like 8-inches. That’s 5 football fields 5 ends zones from your muzzle. All the ballyhooed plinking down bond with a revolver----great fun it is----may leave you shaking your head on the silhouette line.

Eric King’s Seville most likely broke from of a flaw in the frame, not that he doesn’t load stiff. The .357 Maximum just didn’t provide the power. I haven’t played the 500 meter revolver game, although, if I did I would certainly push the .357 Maximum to see for myself. Right now I think the BFR .30-30 has the potential to play. It needs a 10-inch barrel minimum, 15” would be better, and might have to cocktail the twist down to 1:8 or so. (iIs this called hi-jacking your own answer?)

IHMSA boys from the departed era John Taffin and Boyd Carpenter, along with a couple others have worked the loading bench. Compared to loading the straight wall .357 Maximum, the tapered .375 Super mag is a chore. Parent .375 Winchester brass is stiffer, with better spring-back and loading life, than standard .30-30 brass.

There should not be pressure spike issue with appropriate slow powders. Once again, all the hard stuff we did with the .357 Maximum was done with slow powders, and we never blew a gun. Folks who step outside the rule we operated under get in trouble. My feeling is, such folks are looking for trouble. They are not looking for performance. A caveat here: if you want to do with a .375 SM what we did with the .357 Maximum, start with a 5-shot cylinder. Naturally, the same applies to any larger bore.

Some persons call Dick Casull an amateur, but he set out to drive velocity from a .45 bullet, and to do so in a 3-pound revolver. Casull helped bring us to where we are today. He reverted to Sam Colt’s 1836 Patterson for a 5-shot cylinder----the issue being strength----and contained it in a packable revolver.

At risk of hi-jacking my own response, the answer is YES, you can get into trouble with the .375 Super Mag. Some of the trouble folks have got into with the .375 SM could have been avoided if 1) Ruger had made the frame, and with 2) a 5-shot cylinder.
David Bradshaw

[jsh]

David, thanks once again for your "been there, seen that" response. My library, folders of data and info, all of my back issues of the IHMSA news, hand loader and American Rifleman are not yet back in order after getting some new book shelves.
I thought I could lay hands on my notes and articles of the 375 SM, not today.

I have yet to figure the why of a medium bore revolver in 375 was not touched on more in the early days. May have possibly been the 38-55 using a .380+ sized projectile compared to today's standard of .375-.377.

I had chased down a couple of Sevilles and a Dan Wesson or two of the 375 super mag nature. Not knowing what any of these had been "fed"'in prior use and life, I couldn't drop the hammer on the buy.

My opinion on the BFR, hell built for stout. I think they are missing a fair bit of the market by not having a cylinder length in the middle of the two they offer. The bottle neck sized cylinder length is too much of a good thing, at least for my way of thinking. I will say I should have picked up most all of the ones I ran across in the used rack for pennies on the dollar in years past.

Jeff

[Lee Martin]

5-shots, 100 yards bench rested. Center hold.
Ruger Blackhawk, Martin conversion - .375 Atomic
Barrel – Shilen, 1:12 twist, 8 1/4” long
Gripframe & panels – Jack Huntington
Rear Sight – Bowen target
Bullet – 200 gr cast, GC
Powder – 21.0 grs H110
Brass - .30-30 Winchester, 1.40”
Primer - CCI 350
Velocity – haven’t chrono’d the load in a while. Should be between 1,500 – 1,600 fps.







After the rear sight was clicked to the right:



I’m going to stay with this Atomic for 100 yard work. Spoke with Bradshaw last night and discussed moving to offhand at that distance. He suggested both heavy H110 and reduced HS6 loads to gauge trigger feel. Perhaps he’ll jump in and elaborate; his advice always advances my shooting. I sure many of you can say the same.

-Lee
www.singleactions.com
"Chasing perfection five shots at a time"

[Joe S.]

That's a neat cartridge Lee.

Do you just use a modified 30-30 sizing die? And do you make your own seating die?

[bradshaw]

"I have yet to figure the why of a medium bore revolver in 375 was not touched on more in the early days. May have possibly been the 38-55 using a .380+ sized projectile compared to today's standard of .375-.377.

I had chased down a couple of Sevilles and a Dan Wesson or two of the 375 super mag nature. Not knowing what any of these had been "fed"'in prior use and life, I couldn't drop the hammer on the buy.”
----Jeff

*****

Jeff.... a “medium bore revolver,” doesn’t come with the ancestry of a .38, a .44 or .45. To campaign the .375 Super Mag in silhouette, one must face the tapered case and lack of suitable bullets, and then ask, what does it do on steel that a .44 Mag doesn’t, or a .357 Maximum or .41 Mag doesn’t, or a .357 Mag from the Freedom Arms Model 353? Answer: nothing. Among Super Mags, the .375 SM would far outclass the .414 SM or .445 SM on silhouettes.

Now swing over to Eric King and a few others plying the 500 meter game with sixguns. The .375 Super Mag shows its oats here. Among other things, Eric King is an IHMSA All-American, Iron Man Champion, Aggregate and International Champion. To clarify, International Champion and World Champion are one and the same thing. The Europeans insist on the term World Champion. For those looking for a little extra provenance, Eric King was a main instigator of the fight to defeat California Proposition 15----the 1982 referendum attempt to ban handguns in California. Eric’s speech at the IHMSA Annual Banquet brought Bill Ruger and Bill Ruger, Jr., and through Hugh Reed, Federal Cartridge into the fight, which companies muscled a mostly timid industry. In fact, the Ruger’s used Thompson/Center as example of a small manufacturer throwing in for the Second Amendment to shame much larger players into joining the fight. We must thank Eric King for this snowball.

Lee Martin's revolver utilizes a 1.4-inch case (versus .1610” Super Mag), which generates plenty steam from a tight revolver. And a revolver must be tight to appreciate the boiler room of these longer cases. The Dan Wesson .375 SM couldn’t touch the .357 Maximum for convenience, softer shooting and dead-nuts accuracy. For ease of shooting and accuracy you don’t have to fight for, Ruger hit it with the .357 Maximum. Not to mention the ability to shoot regular .357’s.

OFFHAND
Lee started the 100 Yards & Iron Sights thread. The other night, Lee told me that, having bagged his .375 Atomic at 100, it’s time to continue the shooting on his hind legs. That he would do so with cast bullets seated over HS-6 for a medium charge, and H110 for a stiff charge. So I suggested he go light, concentrate on the softer HS-6 charge, for the specific purpose of feeling the trigger and feeling the correlation of sight picture and trigger. And always the reminder, the only difference between shooting from a rest and standing is that, in offhand the gun never stops moving!

In other words, TRIGGER SQUEEZE is exactly the same whether the gun is still or moving. There are no short cuts to sharpshooting.
David Bradshaw

[jt]

What distances have you fellas got your zeros set on your-revolvers (Lee) to be aiming dead-on at 100 yard plates without holding over?? ...and where do your bullets land on 25 yard or similar close-range targets? Very high(?)

[bradshaw]

Jul 16, 2017 1:11:26 GMT -5 jt said:

What distances have you fellas got your zeros set on your-revolvers (Lee) to be aiming dead-on at 100 yard plates without holding over?? ...and where do your bullets land on 25 yard or similar close-range targets? Very high(?)

*****

jt.... with a .45 automatic zeroed @ 25 yards, Point of Impact drops 12” to 18” @ 100 yards; considerably less with a 9mm Luger----6” to 8”. A .45 Colt throwing the old meatball around 800 fps drops like the ACP. Since most revolver bullets have the ballistic coefficient of a barn door and mosey below or at the speed of sound, gravity has time to work on them as they trek yonder football field. Velocity changes the trajectory game, yet the harder you push a bullet, the more wind resistance it meets. A bullet started at or below the SoS (Speed of Sound----crudely 1,125 fps) sheds velocity slowly, while a bullet sent screaming compresses the air in front of it.

A .357, .41 or .44 Magnum @ 1,300 to 1,400 fps dramatically flattens trajectory compared to pushing the same slug @ 800-1,000 fps, even as wind resistance increases. The same is true for the .45 Colt when loaded to 1,300 fps----it dramatically flattens trajectory over the old Peacemaker load. (Anyone playing this game must abandon the Peacemaker and its clones and get off the free lunch fantasy.)

To dope a revolver sighted-in @ 50’ or 25 yards to hit Point of Aim @ 100 yds, staple a 2’ square of plain cardboard @ 100 yards; center your sight picture in the top 1/3 of the target. The magnums will drop 4-6 inches and be well on the cardboard. My drop figures are for reference only, as individual handguns and loads alter results. To elevate a thin slice of blade on a short barrel raises POI more than the same slice on a long barrel.

Silhouette shooters left no room in big bore for bullets started @ 800-900 fps to crawl into the winners circle. Take a SIG/Sauer P220 .45 ACP with 4.4” barrel, from which a 230 grain bullet sleep-walks from the muzzle @ 780 fps. If that gun is an inch or two low @ 25 yards, it will hit 12 feet low @ 200 meters (219 yards). You will have to hold all the front sight and glimpse the crown of the slide above the plane of your rear sight to center-punch the 12” back-to-belly of the ram.

By comparison, a 240 grain .44 Magnum departing @ 1,300 fps drops 4 to 5 feet @ 200 meters. There is nothing nonchalant about hitting with an iron sight sixshooter @ 200 meters; accuracy with velocity is is an aid to consistency. So is marksmanship.

As for reaching out with a slow moving meatball, it can be done, and it is a great discipline for believing in gravity----and for coming to terms with wind drift----but it is not a ticket to the podium against hungry lead slingers.
David Bradshaw