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Post by seancass on Jun 30, 2014 6:47:49 GMT -5
ok, so that's covered. Anybody have any thoughts on crimping heavy 45 Colt loads?  |
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Post by CraigC on Jun 30, 2014 13:50:35 GMT -5
For serious hunting or self defense new brass' If being a cheap skate is your game, get another sport. I must be a cheapskate too! I've got Speer .44Mag brass that's been in rotation since I first started handloading. I've used them enough to have worn all the nickel plating off them. Maybe it would be best for our sport if we would refrain from running off new members by calling them "cheapskates" who should "get another sport"  |
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Post by CraigC on Jun 30, 2014 13:58:24 GMT -5
Youngdave, I didn't see any name calling first of all. Second, you're new so I'm going to have to excuse the fact that you got all butthurt when Lee Jurras gave some advice. I suggest you look his name up in the grand old google machine and then maybe you'll realize you were given advice by a VERY knowledgable expert in these subjects. Lee is the father of the modern self defense ammunition if you want to think of it in that way. He has truly been there and done that. If some feathers were ruffled by Lee's "cheapskate" comment, I'm sure calling them "butthurt" goes a long way to smooth that over. Not everybody who reads these forums knows that "curmudgeon" is Lee Jurras. Not everybody who shoots knows who Lee Jurras is. Not knowing any of that, I can plainly see how some feathers would've been ruffled just by reading the words on the screen. That said, being a "former industry legend" does not give one the right to be belligerent with their opinions and experiences. In other words, if the wisdom is lost in the delivery, what's the point??? |
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Post by 2 Dogs on Jun 30, 2014 14:34:03 GMT -5
Heck, thats nuthin!! Ken ONeil said I lived in a glass house!
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Post by CraigC on Jun 30, 2014 15:02:11 GMT -5
Do you? Been throwing rocks again???
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Odin
.327 Meteor
Posts: 971
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Post by Odin on Jun 30, 2014 18:47:35 GMT -5
ALL the above is good data, but only a couple have mentioned case harness gradient, which changes with each operation. For heavy loads you should use only 2-3 times loaded brass. For serious hunting or self defense new brass' If being a cheap skate is your game, get another sport. If elasticity or hardness gradient is gone from 1/8" of the case mouth, you are whistling Dixie for any crimp, and or neck tension. Read advanced loading techniques and then experiment. There are no short cuts to good ammo. This may get lost in all the smoke, but here goes: Should a shooter expect to see greater case life, as far as elasticity is concerned, if he's running mid-range loads as opposed to heavy charges? I ask because it seems that, at least in the larger calibers, a heavy load isn't necessary to do the work that needs to be done. And if you're running real mouse-fart loads (say, bullseye speed), even greater case life? |
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Post by contender on Jun 30, 2014 19:55:10 GMT -5
Well said Max!
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Post by curmudgeon on Jun 30, 2014 21:06:14 GMT -5
FWIW dept. The heavy charge is not what work hardens brass. Its the sizing, expanding, and expanding and crimping. Most light loads will not even straighten out the crimp. But hot loads can ruin and or enlarge primer pockets etc. Not to step on any toes but, an experienced reloader should be able to tell a lot from feel of the die and cartridge case. With just enough belling of the case mouth to start the bullet and seating it, if you can twist the bullet with your fingers you have lost proper case hardness gradient, when the primers are loose fit you have lost gradient in the head area and, it starts to become dangerous. Hardness gradient is just what the name applies, gradient from head to case mouth, with the hardest being at the head of the case and the lowest being at the case mouth.
Perhaps using Cheapskate was a poor choice of words. Traveling the slippery slope of safety would have been a better choice. But then again I have been cussed by others for implying even that. Like I said before if the shoe fits wear it. Whether you like me or cuss me, makes no difference but the sport needs knowegable handloaders. When in doubt, pitch it. Fingers and eyes are not as easily replaced as a worn out cartridge case.
I think the starter of this topic said he buys factory ammo for self defence. That tells us what he thinks of his handloads.
I can tell stories till the cows come home about the trials and tribularions of some factory ammo failures. And I'm talking about all ammo companies, even gov't military ammo. This is not a perfect sport. But attention to detail plays a very important part.
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Post by CraigC on Jun 30, 2014 22:09:22 GMT -5
I think the starter of this topic said he buys factory ammo for self defence. That tells us what he thinks of his handloads. Not really. It tell me he's probably heard Massad Ayoob's tales about the dangers of using handloads for self defense. Which a lot of people believe, without knowing that it's never actually happened. |
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Odin
.327 Meteor
Posts: 971
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Post by Odin on Jun 30, 2014 22:25:03 GMT -5
FWIW dept. The heavy charge is not what work hardens brass. Its the sizing, expanding, and expanding and crimping. Most light loads will not even straighten out the crimp. But hot loads can ruin and or enlarge primer pockets etc. Not to step on any toes but, an experienced reloader should be able to tell a lot from feel of the die and cartridge case. With just enough belling of the case mouth to start the bullet and seating it, if you can twist the bullet with your fingers you have lost proper case hardness gradient, when the primers are loose fit you have lost gradient in the head area and, it starts to become dangerous. Hardness gradient is just what the name applies, gradient from head to case mouth, with the hardest being at the head of the case and the lowest being at the case mouth. Perhaps using Cheapskate was a poor choice of words. Traveling the slippery slope of safety would have been a better choice. But then again I have been cussed by others for implying even that. Like I said before if the shoe fits wear it. Whether you like me or cuss me, makes no difference but the sport needs knowegable handloaders. When in doubt, pitch it. Fingers and eyes are not as easily replaced as a worn out cartridge case. I think the starter of this topic said he buys factory ammo for self defence. That tells us what he thinks of his handloads. I can tell stories till the cows come home about the trials and tribularions of some factory ammo failures. And I'm talking about all ammo companies, even gov't military ammo. This is not a perfect sport. But attention to detail plays a very important part. Thanks, Lee. It's just this kind of tutelage that I find priceless. Hopefully others do as well. |
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Post by curmudgeon on Jul 1, 2014 5:06:48 GMT -5
Craig C.. Seems like you have a bone to pick with me? I question your authority. If the masses fail to have any interest in my
experience, regardless of my presentation their loss not mine. You have my permission to make a better presentation to the masses of newbies.
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Post by AxeHandle on Jul 1, 2014 8:34:01 GMT -5
FWIW Before Lee enlightened us with the results of his long range accuracy testing at Super Vel as a bullseye shooter I knew that brass was pretty much insignificant with my pipsqueak 45 ACP loads at 25 yards. Mixed headstamps with markings virtually worn from the case heads were capable of 100-10X cleans on the 25 yard timed and rapid fire targets. However for slow fire at still relatively short range, 50 yards, I knew from experience to be careful to use new or once fired brass. New brass for magnum stuff at significantly longer ranges is a simple given. If I'm looking for ultimate reliability and accuracy required for a high master score for bullseye, silhouette other any other shooting activity I reach for new brass. Sure I've got my 25 yard and well worn play stuff in coffee cans all over the shop. Now days you can look up on the top shelves in my shop and see boxes of new stuff. Ready for the days that accuracy matters.
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Post by CraigC on Jul 1, 2014 11:47:47 GMT -5
Craig C.. Seems like you have a bone to pick with me? I question your authority. If the masses fail to have any interest in my experience, regardless of my presentation their loss not mine. You have my permission to make a better presentation to the masses of newbies. Not really. Maybe once but no more. An accusation flung my way long ago has surely tainted my opinion but I mostly just ignore it now. That said, the statement about handloads was purely on topic and non-personal. MY EXPERIENCE tells me that a lot of shooters believe the legend perpetuated by Ayoob about handloads for self defense. It is a FAR greater likelihood that the statement about using factory loads for defense was due to the Ayoob legend than a low opinion of one's handloads. Of course, one might just ask a question to the maker of the statement, rather than making assumptions of their own. You are free to question my authority all day long. Although I'm not sure what authority I have that is being questioned. Just as I am free to question yours. Particularly when this is not your house yet statements you make drive new members away. I'm more interested in the integrity and longevity of this forum in particular and our sport in general than placating ornery old men. |
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Paden
.375 Atomic
Lower Goldstream Creek
Posts: 1,132
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Post by Paden on Jul 1, 2014 21:43:23 GMT -5
Particularly when this is not your house yet statements you make drive new members away. I'm more interested in the integrity and longevity of this forum in particular and our sport in general than placating ornery old men. Speaking as someone who is a fairly new member, I can attest that statements from the likes of Mr. Jurras are unlikely to "drive new members away". Most people, even as newcomers, are quick to recognize and differentiate those who speak from experience verses those who are feeling big in their britches and speak because they fancy their own voice. |
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Post by CraigC on Jul 2, 2014 11:00:23 GMT -5
Most people, even as newcomers, are quick to recognize and differentiate those who speak from experience verses those who are feeling big in their britches and speak because they fancy their own voice. Yes, that much is absolutely true. |
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