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Post by bigbrowndog on Apr 7, 2024 20:42:57 GMT -5
I have dual cylinders for my FA83 and 5 shot Super Blackhawk custom, in 410GNR, which is a .454 necked to 41 caliber. It loves heavy bullets (250gn +) and really belts out speed. I know you will ask if I chrono’ed them, and I have not, yet. It sure barks a lot more than the 260 at 1300 in standard 41mag. Reeder claims 1900fps with a 255gr bullet. About what I get from the 357max with 165gr bullets. That was my wish when I got the 414sm. If I could push 250’s at what the 357max does 180’s I’d be happy. It does that and I’m happy, but what I if I could push 290-300’s at that speed??? The Hornady 300gr. bullet for the 405win. with the nose removed weighs 295ish, right now I get 1300ish from it. It holds promise!!! Trapr
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Post by hunter01 on Apr 7, 2024 21:04:47 GMT -5
Reeder claims 1900fps with a 255gr bullet. About what I get from the 357max with 165gr bullets. That was my wish when I got the 414sm. If I could push 250’s at what the 357max does 180’s I’d be happy. It does that and I’m happy, but what I if I could push 290-300’s at that speed??? The Hornady 300gr. bullet for the 405win. with the nose removed weighs 295ish, right now I get 1300ish from it. It holds promise!!! Trapr The 44mag will do it with a 300+ as will the 454. What are you gaining besides the novelty of something different?
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Post by bigbrowndog on Apr 7, 2024 21:13:36 GMT -5
Trajectory and less muzzle blast, and as hard as it is to believe less felt recoil. I have 44’s and 454’s yes they will do it, but it’s not the same. It’s like lumping all of the 6.5’s in and saying they’ll all do the same thing, yes they will some more efficiently than others, but there is no denying the 6.5cm does it more efficiently than the others, it’s the same with the 41. Trapr
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Post by hunter01 on Apr 7, 2024 21:31:51 GMT -5
Trajectory and less muzzle blast, and as hard as it is to believe less felt recoil. I have 44’s and 454’s yes they will do it, but it’s not the same. It’s like lumping all of the 6.5’s in and saying they’ll all do the same thing, yes they will some more efficiently than others, but there is no denying the 6.5cm does it more efficiently than the others, it’s the same with the 41. Trapr The powder column or amount plays such a small part in the recoil equation to be considered inconsequential. There is literally no new ground being broken just different names to do the same things. Pressure=velocity. If your 6.5cm is outrunning my 260r, there is only one way, and its not efficiency, its pressure. Ive built dozens of them that have been fielded in all kinds of formats. I like to be different and built some wildcats that are now commercial offerings before they existed commercially (like the 6.5cm) but there is no voodoo magic, i just wanted to be different. No problem just calling a spade a spade. Muzzle blast. Youd need a decibel meter to know. I find the 357 QUITE annoying myself. Trajectory. We are talking fractions of inches to a couple inches difference at any reasonable sixgunning distance. Believe me, i was gung ho to get into the 41 for all the reasons you listed until i sat down and went through everything rationally without bias. You just want to be different too, and i can respect that.
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Post by bigbrowndog on Apr 7, 2024 21:44:07 GMT -5
I’m not a CM fan so cannot speak to outdoing one or the other, in external ballistics nor can I spout internal ballistics data as I have no lab to provide such. I was merely quoting anecdotal evidence on efficiency.However, another way for “my” gun to outrun your gun is simply with a faster or slower barrel. I’ve seen it done time and again with the same load fired from two different rifles, sorry no pressure data to back up the performance so cannot say if the faster barrel built more or not. I personally prefer the 260 or the Swede, to the CM. Just as I prefer the .41 to the .43, I also feel the 454C is probably the best all around handgun hunting round available, but the muzzle blast and pressures required to get it there are a bit much for my all day shooting comfort. I agree the 357 blast is annoying, as to using rationale. Everyone has different rationale, mine is based on me and my uses and past performances. A couple of inches at reasonable hunting distances, are esoteric or ambiguous terms, what is a couple of inches really!!! And what is reasonable handgun hunting distances. A couple of inches on paper and a data board is 2” but in the field it’s different, because your ability to hold hard without moving is nonexistent. I’ll take myself as the example, I can hold on 2” at 100yards from a solid rest, given my gun groups 2-3” at that distance I am able to consistently place all or any of my shots within 5 inches of where I’m hoping to hit even if my shot breaks on the outer limits of my hold. If my midrange trajectory is +2” at 100 yards because I’m running a 150 yard zero, now I’m hoping to land a bullet within 6-7” of where I want. All that is only if my actual hold corresponds with the actual yardage of my quarry, which for me rarely happens. I typically round up or down to my nearest whole yardage. So 167yards becomes 170 yards, plus do I actually take into consideration the angle of the shot or just hold for the yardage. Where I hunt it can be pool table flat, or 30-45 degrees, so gaining any and all advantage is my preference. Reasonable handgun hunting distances for me depend on bullet choice, caliber, the chosen game, and my ability to place rounds where I want them and not where i hope for them to go. Some guns and game that’s 75-85 yards, some it’s 50, others it’s 150 and still others it’s 300+.
Trapr
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Post by hunter01 on Apr 7, 2024 23:19:07 GMT -5
I feel like once a trajectory is learned, 2" more drop will be ingrained already and compensated for with your hold. Also, to reach the numbers you were talking about surely puts you in 454 pressure territory doesnt it? Im not trying to disparage anyone's choice, i just know when i was honest with myself about what the differences actually were, i found there was no need for the .41 in my world. I suppose you did the same and concluded the same about the .43? I want something that shoots like a laser, recoils like a 22, and barks like a cap gun. That reminds me of the old saying when we refer to having a craftsman do work. You can have it cheap, fast, or good, but you cant have all 3.
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Post by reflex264 on Apr 8, 2024 7:39:38 GMT -5
Just my opinion but having actually shot Trapr's .414 I would deffinately consider adding one to my stable. The blast from the gun isn't bad and it apeared to shoot very flat. The recoil wasn't bad either. Our target ranges were 100, 150 and 225 if I remember correctly. It was deffinately much flatter shooting than my .44 Bisley hunter which it should have been.
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Post by hunter01 on Apr 8, 2024 7:54:26 GMT -5
Just my opinion but having actually shot Trapr's .414 I would deffinately consider adding one to my stable. The blast from the gun isn't bad and it apeared to shoot very flat. The recoil wasn't bad either. Our target ranges were 100, 150 and 225 if I remember correctly. It was deffinately much flatter shooting than my .44 Bisley hunter which it should have been. I dont doubt any of that for a second. Im just wondering if a 43 bore with similar capacity pushed to similar pressures would yield any significant difference in trajectory, muzzle blast, or recoil. When i looked at the differences in BC and SD between the two bores and there is very little difference in bullet weight between them. So if you increase bullet weight 25gr in the .430 bore and match velocity, how much difference in bark and bite is there really? We are now matching the theoretical trajectory and and penetration through the same SD and BC so the only thing left is recoil and blast. Many people contend when defending a 44spl or 45colt that the pressure is what dictates the blast. We are at the same pressure in our .430 theory and burning a little more powder through a little bigger bore. Can we REALLY tell the difference in the bark? We are pushing a slightly heavier bullet through a slightly larger bore. Can we REALLY tell a difference in the bite? Its all subjective really and our brains are such incredibly powerful machines that many times we will "know"'what we want to know. Basically, we can talk ourselves into or out of anything if we want to.
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Post by reflex264 on Apr 8, 2024 8:35:43 GMT -5
Just my opinion but having actually shot Trapr's .414 I would deffinately consider adding one to my stable. The blast from the gun isn't bad and it apeared to shoot very flat. The recoil wasn't bad either. Our target ranges were 100, 150 and 225 if I remember correctly. It was deffinately much flatter shooting than my .44 Bisley hunter which it should have been. I dont doubt any of that for a second. Im just wondering if a 43 bore with similar capacity pushed to similar pressures would yield any significant difference in trajectory, muzzle blast, or recoil. When i looked at the differences in BC and SD between the two bores and there is very little difference in bullet weight between them. So if you increase bullet weight 25gr in the .430 bore and match velocity, how much difference in bark and bite is there really? We are now matching the theoretical trajectory and and penetration through the same SD and BC so the only thing left is recoil and blast. Many people contend when defending a 44spl or 45colt that the pressure is what dictates the blast. We are at the same pressure in our .430 theory and burning a little more powder through a little bigger bore. Can we REALLY tell the difference in the bark? We are pushing a slightly heavier bullet through a slightly larger bore. Can we REALLY tell a difference in the bite? Its all subjective really and our brains are such incredibly powerful machines that many times we will "know"'what we want to know. Basically, we can talk ourselves into or out of anything if we want to. Points well taken. Once again this is all subjective and in a nut shell comes down the seat of the pants experience just like driving. I guess it would be differenct if we were sensitive to the bite. I have never thought the .454 was that bad to shoot but if you read the volumes writen about it the harsh recoil is one fo the first things mentioned.
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Post by bearskinner on Apr 8, 2024 9:10:01 GMT -5
Recoil is subjective, and a lot depends on what you’re used to. I have shot big revolvers my whole life. Mt son was tagging rabbits with the .454 at age 12. I “feel” recoil, but expect it, and attempt to NOT let it interfere with my shooting. Being prepared for heavy recoil, and having previous experience, certainly help mitigate any flinching, and keep you on track to shooting well. Once I have a hunting revolver sighted in, and any testing done, I may only fire 2-3 practice rounds at a setting ( or standing, practicing in the woods) it’s your first shot that counts. Sometimes that’s all that’s needed. I like to practice often, but just don’t need to shoot piles of lead, till I’m tired.
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Post by bigbrowndog on Apr 8, 2024 11:11:17 GMT -5
“I feel like once a trajectory is learned”
I shoot too many different guns with different trajectories different sights, different zeroes, etc. to learn any one trajectory. I look each one up on my ballistic program prior to hunting it, and try to Ingrain that data to my mind AT THE TIME. Once I’ve moved on from that gun I do it all over again with the next. As to the 414sm being in the same level of pressure as a 454, I’d say no it’s why I can have six holes instead of 5, and no special steel needed as well. Now going to a 5 shot 414, again as I said we would be in undiscovered country, so maybe. I believe the pressures generated by the 357 and 41 in FA83’s is much higher than normal SAAMI spec for the cartridge. Which is why they can perform like their longer brothers.
Trapr
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Post by hunter01 on Apr 8, 2024 13:42:44 GMT -5
“I feel like once a trajectory is learned” I shoot too many different guns with different trajectories different sights, different zeroes, etc. to learn any one trajectory. I look each one up on my ballistic program prior to hunting it, and try to Ingrain that data to my mind AT THE TIME. Once I’ve moved on from that gun I do it all over again with the next. As to the 414sm being in the same level of pressure as a 454, I’d say no it’s why I can have six holes instead of 5, and no special steel needed as well. Now going to a 5 shot 414, again as I said we would be in undiscovered country, so maybe. I believe the pressures generated by the 357 and 41 in FA83’s is much higher than normal SAAMI spec for the cartridge. Which is why they can perform like their longer brothers. Trapr . You can have 6 holes because of a smaller diameter chamber. You can learn the trajectory or take your calculators word for it. Its the same difference! If we are going to rely on conjecture and ignore facts, not really much of a conversation and will end up at the beginning. Ive stated the ballistic truth as i know it ti be. Not much else i can do. I just dont want someone spending their hard earned cash on some ballistic miracle that simply doesnt exist. If you want to be different, be different, but dont lead the less astute to believe in a ballistuc unicorn that defies all laws of physics. I wish everyone great success with whatever they choose to field.
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Post by bigbore5 on Apr 8, 2024 14:24:00 GMT -5
Some of my 353 loads have tested above 58,000psi. None of my 357max loads exceed 41,000 by book data. I would stop the 41 in an 83 around 50,000 and in a 5-shot BFR the brass primer pockets will die first.
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Post by bigbrowndog on Apr 8, 2024 15:13:16 GMT -5
“You want to be different, be different, but dont lead the less astute to believe in a ballistuc unicorn that defies all laws of physics” I think you misread something in my post somewhere, I do not believe I was leading anyone astray or stating that my caliber choices were the do all be all end all. We will simply have to be adults and agree to disagree, on whatever it is you think I’m forcing on someone. You have a good day.
Trapr
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Post by hunter01 on Apr 8, 2024 15:37:21 GMT -5
“You want to be different, be different, but dont lead the less astute to believe in a ballistuc unicorn that defies all laws of physics” I think you misread something in my post somewhere, I do not believe I was leading anyone astray or stating that my caliber choices were the do all be all end all. We will simply have to be adults and agree to disagree, on whatever it is you think I’m forcing on someone. You have a good day. Trapr Im referring to less bark and less bite but somehow superior ballistics. There are no free lunches. As i stayed before, there is no magic to the 41 bore or any other for that matter. If we are firing the same BC bullet at the same velocity, we have the same external ballistics. Between the 41 and 43 we are talking 20gr or so of bullet weight and a little more powder of the larger bore. The bark and bite will be very similar. "And thems the facts". You have a good day as well.
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