Fowler
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Post by Fowler on Dec 10, 2023 11:31:29 GMT -5
Ok so in equal 1911 5” barreled guns how much gain can be had from a 38 super over 9mm +P+ loads? I have played with a 38 super just a bit and warmed up my 9mm Colt 1911 way above regular factory loads ( 150gr cast bullets at 1100fps+ 115gr XTP over 1400fps).
Obviously the 38 super can be ran up above factory as well but practically how much? I remember USPSA guys who stomped on 38 supers to make major by a lot, their guns shot flatter with their comps the hotter they went, to the point new Starline brass would last 1-2 loading before the primers would fall out. But that not what we are talking about here.
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Post by bigbrowndog on Dec 10, 2023 11:48:23 GMT -5
Looking at equal pressures it just makes sense that a Super can be made hotter, faster than a 9, it’s got more case for powder. Guns built equally should logically prove that out, a 357mag is hotter than a 38sp, and a 357max is hotter than a 357mag. But only when loaded at normal SAAMI OAL.
The IPSC guys typically played with “just” making Major PF, and then which powder would allow the comp to work the best and keep the fun shooting flat. 9x19 was not approved for Major PF in the US early on, but it was overseas. This is what lead to 9x21, 9x23, 38 super being used to make Major. Once 9x19 was allowed to be used for Major PF, it was used in Euro guns designed for the shorter round. When feeding of the short round was made more reliable by loading it long, ironically pretty much 38Super length, its use in 1911/2011 style guns took off. If you load your 9’s long you are essentially using a rimless 38Super and a fair comparison of rounds no longer exists, this however cannot be done with lighter bullets. So the vast majority of long loaded 9x19 shooters are using heavier than 125gr. bullets, or spending a lot of time and money tuning 1911/2011’s to run the shorter rounds, specifically tuning magazines.
Trapr
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Post by bcelliott on Dec 10, 2023 13:16:05 GMT -5
If your 1911 has a fully supported ramped barrel, then the main limitation is brass strength. With case bulging eliminated due to head support in both 9mm and 38 Super, the Super can run about 150 fps faster than hot 9mm. 9x23 Winchester can add another 150 fps on top of that due to its rifle-thickness case head (Winchester brass only).
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gnappi
.375 Atomic
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Post by gnappi on Dec 10, 2023 13:33:48 GMT -5
If your 1911 has a fully supported ramped barrel, then the main limitation is brass strength. With case bulging eliminated due to head support in both 9mm and 38 Super, the Super can run about 150 fps faster than hot 9mm. 9x23 Winchester can add another 150 fps on top of that due to its rifle-thickness case head (Winchester brass only). 100% on point! I've been shooting supers (IPSC/Steel/IDPA etc.) since the late 70's / early 80's, mostly with 140-150 grain cast bullets. Here's a couple of issues as I witnessed them. Steel "pepper poppers" setup to not fall on a windy day go down handily with heavier super bullets while they stand and laugh at or take several successive hits with what were called "major" 9's. Bowling pins are lifted off the back of the table with heavier supers and 9's tend to leave more dead wood. Yes, a perfect hit in the center of a pin with a 9 may take it off the table, but heavier bullets are more forgiving of a bit of deviation of actual contact point off center and impart more of what's needed to push the flimsy ~3.5 pound maple core pin off the table. The advantage of the extra case capacity of the super can't be overstated. The "problems" back in the day with the super were the semi rim could be problematic feeding and case ruptures. The .38 Super Comp fixed the feed snag and blowouts were cured with +p brass and ramped barrels. Now that Colt is just about the only maker of guns without a ramped barrel in super most everyone who shoots a super has a ramped barrel. I have not had a reloaded case rupture since I mostly stopped using Colts. My Colt pistols will only be used with factory ammo or with brand new hand loaded brass. As far as non competitive real world SD experience goes, let me pose this Q... If a three and a half pound bowling pin and pepper popper can stand up to a caliber, ANY caliber is that the one someone wants to carry in the real world? BTW, Tanfoglio supers have a capacity advantage over the 1911, with factory options like compensated barrels and other full race goodies the Tanfo's are hot with gun game players.  |
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gnappi
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Post by gnappi on Dec 10, 2023 13:48:38 GMT -5
PS, After many hits once bowling pins get clogged up and infused with lots of lead they get VERY heavy and much more difficult to take cleanly off the table, heavier vs. heavier will more likely win the day :-)
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Post by bigbrowndog on Dec 10, 2023 14:03:09 GMT -5
Off topic however,…….Comparing a steel popper or bowling pin to flesh, blood and bone is not a valid comparison. Those poppers and pins hold up to rifle calibers and large bore magnum handguns. A heavy set IPSC popper is set to fall for a Power Factor, if a Major 9 load failed to topple it then it was either poorly hit, improperly set or improperly hit. Major PF is Major PF, caliber is irrelevant.
Trapr
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gnappi
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Post by gnappi on Dec 10, 2023 14:55:31 GMT -5
Off topic however,…….Comparing a steel popper or bowling pin to flesh, blood and bone is not a valid comparison. Those poppers and pins hold up to rifle calibers and large bore magnum handguns. A heavy set IPSC popper is set to fall for a Power Factor, if a Major 9 load failed to topple it then it was either poorly hit, improperly set or improperly hit. Major PF is Major PF, caliber is irrelevant. Trapr Not off topic at all. Energy is energy, imparted or not. Why do they set poppers to fall from a 9mm? I'll take a guess, because if they set them to a .40 or .45 they would not go down hit by 9's. Any way you cut it anyone who has been to these matches and heard bang, clang... bang clang... bang clang... bang bang bang, clang clang clang and finally THUD and seen the lead paint splatter on good hits who says they were sufficient is not paying attention or their caliber has become a theological issue. |
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Post by AxeHandle on Dec 10, 2023 15:15:10 GMT -5
"Real World" to me equates to recoil and accuracy. Less recoil with better accuracy is where the Super shines at my house. I load 147s to 700ish FPS and it is a 50 yard X ring gun. The 9 will do it too but must be loaded to the recoil level of a 45 wadcutter gun. That kills any rational reason for it in my book.
Then "rational reason" comes into play. If I'm plinking 9mm ammo sure is cheaper. Shoot more, spend less....
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Post by bigbrowndog on Dec 10, 2023 18:19:12 GMT -5
Off topic however,…….Comparing a steel popper or bowling pin to flesh, blood and bone is not a valid comparison. Those poppers and pins hold up to rifle calibers and large bore magnum handguns. A heavy set IPSC popper is set to fall for a Power Factor, if a Major 9 load failed to topple it then it was either poorly hit, improperly set or improperly hit. Major PF is Major PF, caliber is irrelevant. Trapr Not off topic at all. Energy is energy, imparted or not. Why do they set poppers to fall from a 9mm? I'll take a guess, because if they set them to a .40 or .45 they would not go down hit by 9's. Any way you cut it anyone who has been to these matches and heard bang, clang... bang clang... bang clang... bang bang bang, clang clang clang and finally THUD and seen the lead paint splatter on good hits who says they were sufficient is not paying attention or their caliber has become a theological issue. Gnappi they do not set them for 9mm they set them for a particular power factor. Trapr |
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gnappi
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Post by gnappi on Dec 10, 2023 23:34:46 GMT -5
Then the 9's bang, clang... bang clang... bang clang... bang bang bang, clang clang clang and finally THUD Ain't workin' :-) Real world pepper popper... 12 shots. www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yWv7uziD_gI guess I'll be banned for this :-) |
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Post by rjm52 on Dec 11, 2023 7:50:21 GMT -5
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Post by bradshaw on Dec 11, 2023 10:16:53 GMT -5
Ok so in equal 1911 5” barreled guns how much gain can be had from a 38 super over 9mm +P+ loads? ***** Bill.... thank you for posting this thread. Diverse answers to a question born on the competitive Firing Line. A different slant----familiar to a fellow shooter from early silhouette days, Dick Thompson----concerns PLASTIC DEFORMATION vs DISINTEGRATION. Or, as I called it in friendly disagreement with Hornady engineer Ed Heers (Heers went down in the plane with Joyce Hornady), DWELL TIME. Having watched hard cast and hard core jacketed bullets blow up on silhouettes, and sometimes failing to topple the steel silhouette, it became apparent that a frangible bullet has much less push-power. The visual effect of an on-target blowup often is obvious.... a cloud or cigar-puff of “smoke" on the target... with the target still standing. A pure lead core, or a non-brittle alloy core, holds together longer. “Longer” may mean a thousandth or a few ten thousandths of a second, which adds up to BULLET TIME on TARGET. Call it MOMENTUM TIME or some other term----I prefer Dwell Time----but the effect is real. For a given bullet weight & velocity, the longer the bullet pushes on a target it doesn’t penetrate, the more time is has to overcome target inertia. David Bradshaw |
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Post by rjm52 on Dec 11, 2023 10:35:52 GMT -5
Read much the same thing with the Hornady FMJ Silhouette bullets in .41 and .44... The core would pop out the back when the FMJ nose hit the target. By loading the core from the top and making the jacket a little thicker it rivited slightly but delivered the whole punch to the steel target...
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Fowler
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Post by Fowler on Dec 11, 2023 15:30:38 GMT -5
I sort of figured the answer, 150ish fps gain especially with heavy bullets. I dont know the gain is worth dies, barrel, brass, and magazines to make it run in my 9mm 1911, just more of a real world idle question. I have a couple of Brian Pearce's articles on both cartridges and he seems to indicate the differences are not even 150fps. That said I dont carry a 9mm for woods duty, too many other guns for that duty and for CCW duty I have been carrying a P365 for a few years. cant argue with the convenience of the little booger with some stout hollowpoint loads. If I go to a 1911 it will be in 45acp, or perhaps a 10mm, I think the 10mm will be the next cartridge I experiment with in a 1911.
I remember steel being set a touch hard on a USPSA course, I went first one morning to start the day and stage out. 2 large poppers were center stage for the course and I thumped one of them repeatedly with a 1911 in 45acp from 15 yards or so, hardly moved much less made any attempt to fall. I mean is 5-6 center hits with a 230gr bullet wont do it something was wrong with the world. they reset the course and fixed the poppers and I reran the course 25 mins later, those 2 poppers were fought with all day...
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Post by bigbrowndog on Dec 11, 2023 15:48:25 GMT -5
Improperly set poppers are the scourge of competition, I’ve had some not fall to buckshot loads and slugs from shotguns. In World practical shotgun match in Italy I was given 5 reshoots on a stage due to improperly set targets. It does happen, but it sucks when it happens to you
Trapr
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