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Post by boolitdesigner on Dec 11, 2023 16:27:41 GMT -5
Ok, after reading this I HAVE A QUESTION. Is the synopsis for a solid denser object or is it for living flesh? I view the answer as entirely different for each category.
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Post by bigbrowndog on Dec 11, 2023 17:30:55 GMT -5
I read Fowlers question as flesh and blood, but sadly drifted my answer into IPSC/USPSA Major PF reference and the topic devolved from there.
Trapr
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Post by bradshaw on Dec 11, 2023 21:57:05 GMT -5
I read Fowlers question as flesh and blood, but sadly drifted my answer into IPSC/USPSA Major PF reference and the topic devolved from there. Trapr ***** Trapr.... this thread invites the undulations of a beautiful Texas Rat Snake scaling 30 feet up an 80 foot pecan tree., taking a detour into to Browning 1911 feed ramp vs the so-called “supported barrel.” Any 1911 built on John Browning’s blueprint carries beaucoup meat around the chamber. A workable chamber, ramped to introduce bullets configured for business supports the case back into the web during peak pressure. Timing of pressure tp precde the delay in DELAYED BLOWBACK determines safety of the arrangement. The Luger is magnum pressure in a little pill. This is the gift of the 9x19mm Luger, to go nuts in a small space and get away with it. Browning’s .45 ACP finds brilliance at aw shucks pressure, carrying 19th century meatball dynamics through the 20th century into the 21st. The 9mm Luger and .45 Automatic Colt Pistol are horizontal cartridges, mass utility. The .38 Super is a vertical cartridge, specialized. There is no argument against specialty when specialty fits. Specialty defines performance as more than standard. Never heard a rational alibi for the vestige of a rim on the .38 Super. The way Colt chambered barrels ida facto acknowledges ambivalence (confusion over a choice). My own “real world” decision between 9 Mike Mike and .38 Super may be viewed this way: 9mm Luger* Quietest serious self defence cartridge. * Ammo availability. * Teacher cartridge. * Much flatter trajectory than .45 ACP, albeit with far less punch. * Decent barn round, albeit limited presentation, including skull shots. * FMJ Ball doesn’t count. .38 Super* Velocity. * Heavy bullet faster than 9mm Luger. * Poor availability, more expensive. * Handloading builds advantage. Davi Bradshaw
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gnappi
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,393
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Post by gnappi on Dec 11, 2023 23:34:21 GMT -5
I read Fowlers question as flesh and blood, but sadly drifted my answer into IPSC/USPSA Major PF reference and the topic devolved from there. Trapr Since the overwhelming amount of terminal ballistics testing is done on inanimate objects like ballistic gel, fackler boxes, car doors, 2 liter soda bottles etc. minus the very few cadaver and pig corpse studies I don't see a devolving at all. As it is, sorry to have ruffled any feathers it's just so curious when someone says, caliber "X" is "ONLY" 150 fps more than caliber "Y"! So then why is everyone who is giving that argument not going DOWN to the lesser cartridge that's 150 fps less than their darling cartridge? See my point? Anyway Mea Culpa if I stepped on any 9mm devotee's toes.
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Post by Ken O'Neill on Dec 12, 2023 7:59:46 GMT -5
I have solved the quandry in my own aged mind, and simply continue to use the .45 ACP and don't worry about it all.
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Post by revolvercranker on Dec 12, 2023 12:00:17 GMT -5
Off topic, but I have to mention this. I had a German gunsmith friend that lives in German. His favorite pistol is the Luger and some of the pistols and carbines he builds made my mouth water. Yes he builts them in 45acp. Anyways back to this topic. He told me a nice cartridge conversion for the Luger is the 38 Super. My first question, that I'm sure will be some of yours, is would the cartridge work in the magazine. He said take your Luger magazine and fill it with 38 Super cartridges. I did and was amazed. That steeply angles magazine fits a variety of different length cartridges of similar diameter. The Luger has a fully supported chamber too and in addtion is a very strong action. If I were to build one I wouldn't just ream out the 9mm chamber with a 38 Super chamber. As we know the 9mm cartride is fatter in the web and also a tapered cartridge. Maybe someday I'll build a 38 Super Luger.
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Post by ss30378 on Dec 12, 2023 12:29:56 GMT -5
If you throat the 9mm barrel so you can load to a long OAL and use 9x23 loading habits (55k psi) the 9mm can get good numbers. Obviously you need to use 38 super mags. This only works with longer bullets (monolithic bullets and bullets 125g and up).
For me in my pedal to the metal loads, from a 5" SA range officer I got: 95g Barnes tac-x (355 dia) @ 1.200" 1900fps (760lbs of energy), .387 case head 125g xtp (357 dia) @ 1.200" 1600fps (710lbs of energy), .387 case head 158g xtp (357 dia) @ 1.260" 1400fps (685lbs of energy), .388 case head 180g WFN (358 dia) @ 1.260" 1300fps (675lbs of energy), .3885 case head
These loads were in blazer 9mm brass with cci400s. No primers were blown and primer pockets still had good tension but all cases were tossed after this level of pressure. Power pistol, win 572 and 800x gave these results. A bit extreme for sure but it was fun to see what the little 9 can do in a large frame pistol. The pistol has a flat bottom fps and heavier recoil spring for these hot rod loads.
For reference on the same day I ran cheap federal 115g fmj (rated at 1125fps) and it runs 1139fps from this pistol and some fiocchi 147g (rated 975fps) runs 980fps. The factory loads won't cycle the slide so this setup is for +p+ level on up.
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Post by revolvercranker on Dec 12, 2023 12:37:50 GMT -5
If you throat the 9mm barrel so you can load to a long OAL and use 9x23 loading habits (55k psi) the 9mm can get good numbers. Obviously you need to use 38 super mags. This only works with longer bullets (monolithic bullets and bullets 125g and up). For me in my pedal to the metal loads, from a 5" SA range officer I got: 95g Barnes tac-x (355 dia) @ 1.200" 1900fps (760lbs of energy), .387 case head 125g xtp (357 dia) @ 1.200" 1600fps (710lbs of energy), .387 case head 158g xtp (357 dia) @ 1.260" 1400fps (685lbs of energy), .388 case head 180g WFN (358 dia) @ 1.260" 1300fps (675lbs of energy), .3885 case head These loads were in blazer 9mm brass with cci400s. No primers were blown and primer pockets still had good tension but all cases were tossed after this level of pressure. Power pistol, win 572 and 800x gave these results. A bit extreme for sure but it was fun to see what the little 9 can do in a large frame pistol. The pistol has a flat bottom fps and heavier recoil spring for these hot rod loads. For reference on the same day I ran cheap federal 115g fmj (rated at 1125fps) and it runs 1139fps from this pistol and some fiocchi 147g (rated 975fps) runs 980fps. The factory loads won't cycle the slide so this setup is for +p+ level on up. Those are impressive velocities. Here's a thought that went through my mind reading your post. I have the 38/45 conversion on my tuned 70 series Gold Cup. All that was needed of course was the 34/45 barrel and reloading dies. I had Jimmy Clark weld up a Colt 9mm barrel and I fitted it to my pistol. It's amazingly accurate and feeds flawlessly. Only thing you can't hot rod it and the reason is obvious. The unsupported web. You got me to thinking what if it were a supported barrel? Another idea is to have an extra cylinder fitted to a Ruger Blackhawk in the 38/45 chambering. What do any of you think about that? Another think you may have to do with the 38/45 conversion on a 1911 is bush the firing pin hole to the 9mm/38Super size hole because when load for the 38/45 get warmish the large 45 auto firing pin hole cuts "donut" out of the primer.
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Post by ss30378 on Dec 12, 2023 12:58:31 GMT -5
If you throat the 9mm barrel so you can load to a long OAL and use 9x23 loading habits (55k psi) the 9mm can get good numbers. Obviously you need to use 38 super mags. This only works with longer bullets (monolithic bullets and bullets 125g and up). For me in my pedal to the metal loads, from a 5" SA range officer I got: 95g Barnes tac-x (355 dia) @ 1.200" 1900fps (760lbs of energy), .387 case head 125g xtp (357 dia) @ 1.200" 1600fps (710lbs of energy), .387 case head 158g xtp (357 dia) @ 1.260" 1400fps (685lbs of energy), .388 case head 180g WFN (358 dia) @ 1.260" 1300fps (675lbs of energy), .3885 case head These loads were in blazer 9mm brass with cci400s. No primers were blown and primer pockets still had good tension but all cases were tossed after this level of pressure. Power pistol, win 572 and 800x gave these results. A bit extreme for sure but it was fun to see what the little 9 can do in a large frame pistol. The pistol has a flat bottom fps and heavier recoil spring for these hot rod loads. For reference on the same day I ran cheap federal 115g fmj (rated at 1125fps) and it runs 1139fps from this pistol and some fiocchi 147g (rated 975fps) runs 980fps. The factory loads won't cycle the slide so this setup is for +p+ level on up. Those are impressive velocities. Here's a thought that went through my mind reading your post. I have the 38/45 conversion on my tuned 70 series Gold Cup. All that was needed of course was the 34/45 barrel and reloading dies. I had Jimmy Clark weld up a Colt 9mm barrel and I fitted it to my pistol. It's amazingly accurate and feeds flawlessly. Only thing you can't hot rod it and the reason is obvious. The unsupported web. You got me to thinking what if it were a supported barrel? Another idea is to have an extra cylinder fitted to a Ruger Blackhawk in the 38/45 chambering. What do any of you think about that? Another think you may have to do with the 38/45 conversion on a 1911 is bush the firing pin hole to the 9mm/38Super size hole because when load for the 38/45 get warmish the large 45 auto firing pin hole cuts "donut" out of the primer. It just so happens I've done an all out version of one. www.glocktalk.com/threads/38-casull-glock.1682573/#post-24791204This thread is my build of my glock g40 38/45 "improved" in which I shifted the 38/45 shoulder forward to the same position as the 38 casull. I still use 38/45 dies to load and run 45 acp brass. SPP 45 brass and cci400s is what I use for these loads. It is a rocket of a round. In a nut shell from a 6" barrel which has a compensator and excellent case support right to the extractor groove I got: 65g Lehigh @ 1.250": 2704fps/1055lbs energy 90g xtp @ 1.205": 2418fps/1168lbs energy 125g xtp @ 1.260": 2101fps/1225lbs energy 158g SWC @ 1.275": 1745fps/1068lbs energy 180g WFN @ 1.275": 1616fps/1043lbs energy AA9 is my favorite powder for this one. I routinely shoot target practice at 200 yards with this one.
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Post by revolvercranker on Dec 12, 2023 13:15:24 GMT -5
ss30378 again impressive data from you. I will go read your glock thread for sure.
One of my favorite bullets for my 38/45 is the RCBS 150 grain SWC. When I lived in Tulsa, OK my best friend and I use to shoot at a big range he belonged too. On the steel target range I was shooting pigs at 150 meters with my 38/45 and that RCBS bullet. Upon the bang the bullet was on the pig in an instant, but it wouldn't knock him down. My friend laughed and was impressed how flat it shot and how fast it got to the target, but as he said "didn't have enough ass to tumble the pig". I agreed. I'll go read your thread.
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Post by cas on Dec 15, 2023 19:14:47 GMT -5
One thing to remember when talking about "9 Major" loads is they're usually one and done , or nearly that when it comes to case life. The reason they shoot 9M over 38 Super Comp is cheap brass. Then they don't have to worry about picking it up. You can always tell the 9 Major brass when YOU pick it up and reload it. You seat the primer and assume there was a no primer issue with your progressive press. Then you check and see that there IS a primer in it, it just went in with zero resistance. And if you thought I was NOT going to post the brass thickness picture YET AGAIN (lol) you were mistaken.
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Post by bigbrowndog on Dec 15, 2023 19:45:52 GMT -5
Interesting case head pics, possibly explains why 9x23 would not size in my dies, yet ALL the others do without issue. I do not believe the Lapua case ever found its way to my press,….just too obscure. The two look identical, Lapua and 9x23.
Trapr
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Post by cas on Dec 15, 2023 20:00:12 GMT -5
Highly scientific, but I got curious. Looks a little bit thicker in the corner., more metal inside and outside. .
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Post by bigbrowndog on Dec 15, 2023 20:39:08 GMT -5
It would be interesting g to see what 9x19 case heads look like
Trapr
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Post by rjm52 on Dec 15, 2023 21:37:52 GMT -5
From what I have read, the 9x23 is just a lengthened and strengthened 9mm case...it does have a slight taper vs. the .38 Super which is straight walled. The case is a couple thousandths larger in the base than the Super which is why a 9x23 won't fully chamber in a Match chambered .38 Super barrel.
The Colts of recent manufacture will not chamber 9x23 but all my BarSto barrels will as well as Nowlin, ROTO 4M and Fusion. Colts are so Match chambered that they won't even chamber a slightly bulged .38 Super case. Went to a Lee Undersize Sizing Die and cured all of that.
Starline should have called their standard .38 Super brass .38 ACP...
Bob
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