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Post by whitworth on Apr 20, 2013 10:54:57 GMT -5
At similar velocity levels and proportionally similar bullet weights, the .45 loads I tested ran roughly 20% less pressure than the .44. I personally think the .45 has a number of advantages over its smaller sibling.
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Post by CraigC on Apr 20, 2013 11:09:07 GMT -5
I've heard that repeated A LOT but I always ask, what does that gain you? As long as it is within the design parameters of the firearm in question, what does it matter? What makes the .45Colt so great because it offers similar performance at 8000psi less pressure? But the .475 is also great but running at 50,000psi? Seems to me that everything is perceived to be "great" but the .44Mag. Seems to me that it's more perception than reality.
Personally, I think the greatest disadvantage of the .45Colt in factory guns are sloppy factory chambers and chamber mouths that nobody can ever seem to get right. Even my accurized Ruger does not shoot as well as several out of the box .44's.
None of this is because I hate on the .45Colt, I have five of them. I just don't worship it like some seem to.
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jwp475
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Post by jwp475 on Apr 20, 2013 11:18:07 GMT -5
IME and opinion Linebaugh article is spot on today just as it was when written. Stability of the very long bullets are a problem once they hit flesh. They do not penetrate as well as one would think. Ross Seyfreid tried the 400 grain 45 calibers bullets and found they they penetrated close to the 475 420's until he's shot Asian buffalo with then and they did not do well at all, he then abandoned them.
I find the Cast Performance 360 grain to be excellent on game at no more than 1400 FPS this bullet hammers large game and penetrates very well.
Section density is not a good indicator of penetration, nose profile, me plat have much more influence in that regard
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Post by whitworth on Apr 20, 2013 15:55:59 GMT -5
I've heard that repeated A LOT but I always ask, what does that gain you? As long as it is within the design parameters of the firearm in question, what does it matter? What makes the .45Colt so great because it offers similar performance at 8000psi less pressure? But the .475 is also great but running at 50,000psi? Seems to me that everything is perceived to be "great" but the .44Mag. Seems to me that it's more perception than reality. Personally, I think the greatest disadvantage of the .45Colt in factory guns are sloppy factory chambers and chamber mouths that nobody can ever seem to get right. Even my accurized Ruger does not shoot as well as several out of the box .44's. None of this is because I hate on the .45Colt, I have five of them. I just don't worship it like some seem to. The point is that it is able to do more than the .44 mag, more easily. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't see liking one cartridge more than another as worship as you state, but we all have our favorites and to be certain, the .44 has quite a following. I used to like the .44 a lot as well, still do, however, I prefer the .45 Colt. Sure, there seems to be less precision in the available .45 Colts compared to the .44 Mag, but mine aren't sloppy so for me at least its a non issue. I've had .44s that didn't score well when examined closely either, particularly a couple of -3 Model 29s I've owned. As jwp pointed out the 417 grain .45 bullets that Seyfried tested despite similar nose profiles and better SD, didn't fare well against the 420 grain .475 bullets he tested them against. I too think SD takes a back seat to nose profile. |
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anglia48
.30 Stingray
Mark Van Horn
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Post by anglia48 on Apr 20, 2013 19:16:43 GMT -5
475 Linebaugh Long reference? Now I just know that demands a quick thread hijack!   You are hurting me now,Axe-sure wish I had that one back,I just KNEW IT!!!@#$%^$%#@&^%%$!!! |
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Post by AxeHandle on Apr 20, 2013 22:02:41 GMT -5
I hate it for you...  You know it has a good home!  |
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Fowler
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Post by Fowler on Apr 21, 2013 9:19:27 GMT -5
Ok I am going to toss this wrench in the mix, in real world situations, I seriously doubt you will see a whole lot of difference between the two cartridges in the field on game unless you are exploring the fuzzy edges of power and ranges where if you are a honest and ethical hunter you shouldn't be going anyways. A deer standing broadside to you at 50 yards will probably never know the difference between the two rounds when hit, a raking shot at 125 yards it probably would prove some real power advantage of the 454 but is that a shot that should ever be taken?
Yes a .454 can give you a fair bit more velocity for a given bullet weight than the 44mag will. But as proven over and over in the Linebaugh siminars penetration stops gaining when a bullet goes faster than 1200 fps or so, sometimes even lessening how much penetration you will get.
So the gain to the velocity come from trajectory and bullet energy (well and certainly recoil), energy is proven to be a bit of a misnomer, trauma caused by a bullets damaging internal organs in an animal is what kills it not energy. If you want to take advantage of trajectory, it is a incredibly rare person who can use the flatter trajectory in a iron sighted revolver that can be worn reasonably on your hip. Within 100 yards there simply is not enough gain to matter. So to use this gain we now go to 7 1/2" to 10" scoped revolvers, wonderful hunting guns for what they are, but from what you are saying you are looking for a gun to do I don't think they fit the bill.
To me the main advantage of the 454 is its ease of handling heavy bullets well, more case capacity and so forth. I agree that there is a tipping point for bullet weights as most guns have rifling designed for standard weight bullets, the extreme heavies need a different twist to stabilize right. Seyfried said he gave up on those 412gr because the twist was wrong, he knew how to fix the issue but it wasn't worth the effort or expense. But the ability to run 360ish gr bullets at 1400+ if you wish is nothing to sneeze at.
For me if I was looking at buying new and it is a new cartridge to me, and I am a reloader, I am starting at ground zero anyways so a 475 might be a better step to take in my never humble opinion. You go from .429 cal to .477 cal, a huge step, standard bullets now are 355 to 435gr and you can run them right to the edge of a humans ability in recoil if you like. But you also can shoot pleasant 350 to 375gr loads at 850-1100 fos that are fun and truthfully will penetrate almost as deep as a 44 mag can manage with any load. Yes they pretty much a handloaders gun, factory ammo is hard to come by and expensive, yes even bullets are not easy to find, but there are a number of great commercial casters that are a phone call away. If you cast your own bullets then you are really in tall cotton as they are as easy to cast as anything else is and you just have to order a mold or two and move forwards.
In the end I can't say that your 44mag loaded reasonably heavy won't handle most anything you could possibly ask a revolver to do, they have for so many years after all been the baseline for hunting revolvers to be compared to since their introduction. Now if you are looking to justify a new gun/cartridge in the safe well go for it of course, I just think the 454 may not be as big of a step as you think it might be.
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anglia48
.30 Stingray
Mark Van Horn
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Post by anglia48 on Apr 21, 2013 9:37:30 GMT -5
I hate it for you... You know it has a good home! True.Thanks for the pic. |
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Post by coloradoyaler on Apr 21, 2013 10:38:38 GMT -5
I can't thank everyone enough for the toughts and opinions! But, what if we added say a 475 Linebaugh into the mix. Say a 5 1/2 inch for a little easier carrying. Is there much more knockdown power tramsmitted to game from say deer up to Alaskan Moose? Also, what would the possible velocities be from the 5 1/2" with the 325gr and the 400gr?
Thank Again!
Mark
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jwp475
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Post by jwp475 on Apr 21, 2013 12:05:05 GMT -5
Ye just like the 454 is a sizable step up from the 44 the 475 is also a sizable step up. The Moose on the left as well as the bear on the left were hammered with a 5 1/2" Bowen built 475
 Depending on temperature I have clocked 420's up to 1400 FPS. I think that 1200 to 1300 is plenty. I have found that there is very little penetration gain above 1200 FPS and over 1400 FPS loses penetration with hardcast bullets (22 to 24 brinell) because of over taxing the bullet material |
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Post by AxeHandle on Apr 21, 2013 14:37:30 GMT -5
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razor
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Post by razor on Apr 21, 2013 23:43:57 GMT -5
Seems that Kelly killed a few head of game with the 44.
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jwp475
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Post by jwp475 on Apr 22, 2013 4:52:05 GMT -5
Seems that Kelly killed a few head of game with the 44. He did and when he found it lacking he went to the 454 |
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Post by AxeHandle on Apr 22, 2013 8:19:51 GMT -5
If a man was stuck in the 44 groove and wanted a bit more there is always the 445! A 357 maximum can be converted into a nice one.  |
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Post by coloradoyaler on May 14, 2013 16:10:35 GMT -5
This is what I bought. I added the fastfire II and the Hogue Tammer grips. I am very happy with the accuracy of this revolver. It handle the same loads as my two Freedom Arms 454 I've owned. My two Freedom Arms busted my index knuckle. My bfr 475 did not handle recoil for me as well as this Super Redhawk. I drew a mule deer tag for Colorado and I am going to use this for my deer season.  [/URL] |
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You know it has a good home! 
