Larry Crow aka Mo Cyclone Introduction

[Larry Crow]

Hello. I would like to take this opportunity to introduce myself to this forum. My name is Larry Crow aka Missouri Cyclone. I ordered some grip frames and parts from Ronnie Wells at RW Grips and Ronnie recommended that I get involved on this site. I've been enjoying reading the post and great comments.

I have been gunsmithing for over 40 years. I started building guns and shooting at the Bianchi Cup and then I went to USPSA and IDPA. I have built quite a few 38 supers. I have been doing a lot of single actions since the late 90s when I also started doing Cowboy Action shooting and using customized single action revolvers.

I was building single action Ruger’s that would outrun customized 1911’s. That's easy to do with a perfectly timed single action because with a semi auto you have to wait for the slide to cycle. When I went to End of Trail in 2000, I got Octagon barrels approved, and my tight-fitting Single Actions were labeled as race guns. I've ended up with several World Champions shooting my guns. It is not uncommon for the top shooters to go through anywhere from 25-40,000 rounds a year in practice. All my single actions are built to the same specs as my Big Bore five shot revolvers are.

I was on the Board of Directors at Murray State College and an Instructor, and I taught summer NRA Gunsmithing classes on customizing single action revolvers. We built octagon barrels, line bored cylinders and even built some new cylinders.

In 2006, I designed and patented a floating bolt action rifle, with the CEG Tactical Action, with a floated barrel (I also patented the theory) which eliminated vertical stringing. Rangers were shooting 338 Lapua and at 1,000 yards were shooting 2 3/8” vertical. I've got Safari Club International members killing Prairie dogs at 1,800 yards. I also have been busy building Special OPS guns.

My services include action work, custom barrels, oversized cylinder, master bluing, ransom rest testing, line boring, etc.

I have 4 stages of accuracy enhancement programs. Stage 1: Remove the barrel, Taylor throat, to remove choking and rifling 1 ½ x bullet length. Crown barrel at 11° and lap the crown and forcing cone. Stage 2: Repeat number 1 plus uniform, the chambers and the throats in the cylinder and lap them in. Stage 3: Remove the barrel. Remove end shake that is normally found in the revolvers and set it at .001. Square the front of the cylinder in centers on the lathe. Fit oversized cylinder stop and weld a block in the frame for a tight lock up. Set the barrel back one to two threads to clean up the original forcing cone. Taylor throat a new 11-degree fresh cut forcing cone into the lathe. For concentricity and trueness, I have Taylor throating reamers in 32,38, 40,41, 44, 45, 475, 500 and .511. I am a firm believer in Taylor throating especially with factory barrels. Stage 4: All 3 stages- plus a Deluxe Action job, 2 1/2 lb. crisp break creep free trigger pull. It is very difficult to shoot good groups with a trigger that has a lot of creep and not a good break. This has been a successful service for a long time, without the expense of installing a new barrel. Look forward to answering any questions, Improving your single action experience.

Have a blessed day. Larry Crow, Competitive Edge Gunworks.net. [e-mail] 660-322-0304

 

[kings6]

Welcome aboard Larry. I recognize your name from past articles and seeing it mentioned in various publications. A great bunch of guys here who keep discussions in the topics of firearms and who stay away from many non gun related topics. This is probably the largest group of custom revolver nuts you will find under one banner!

[45MAN]

LARRY: WELCOME AND THANK YOU FOR THE INTRO AND THE INFORMATION.

[bradshaw]

Larry Crow.... welcome to Singleactions.

A few of question:
* Have you noticed whether the compression ring formed when a revolver barrel is over-tightened springs back when the barrel loosened or removed? Or, does the constriction remain?
* Have you noticed a difference in springbuck or plastic deformation between carbon steel and stainless steel barrels?
* Is there a difference between FREEBORE and Taylor Throating?
* Has the Taylor throat a taper? If so, has it a set included angle? Or, is the angle set by case length?
* In a Taylor throat, has the LEADE (taper from chamber to land) a set included angle? If so, what is it?
Thank you,
David Bradshaw

[potatojudge]

Welcome Larry

I poked around your Facebook and you’ve built some neat stuff, conventional and unconventional.

We always appreciate pics of past and ongoing projects.

[longoval]

Interested in pricing on stage 4 for New Model Rugers

[45MAN]

Sept 30, 2024 23:37:26 GMT -5 longoval said:

Interested in pricing on stage 4 for New Model Rugers

ME TOO. ALWAYS GOOD TO KNOW OPTIONS AVAILABLE.

[Larry Crow]

Thank you for the Welcome, it will be nice to be around a bunch of gun nuts!

[Larry Crow]

Bradshaw, Thanks for the welcome. 
Normally a barrel that has a compression ring appears to stay the same once it is removed. To be honest, I have never really checked the choking before and after removal. As a rule, I have noticed that carbon steel barrels seem to have a more pronounced choke. In my opinion the difference between free bore and Taylor Throating is that we have more control of a Taylor Throating reamer as it keeps the forcing cone and the removal of the rifling more concentric than using a reamer to remove rifling. The Taylor Throating reamers that I have are ground to no taper for about .500 then tapers down to 1 1/2-degree taper to the lands. I feel Taylor throating serves more than one purpose. #1, Its helps correct any misalignment with the cylinder, #2, It allows the bullet to completely exit the chamber before it engages the rifling. #3, That reduces felt recoil on heavy charges as the bullet travels a bit before it engages the rifling. #4, With Taylor Throating the bullet enters the rifling at 1 1/2 degree versus 18 degree with the standard forcing cone. #5, Taylor Throating Cowboy Action guns diminishes the amount of leading at the forcing cone area for those that shoot a lot of rounds. #6, I have never had a revolver that suffered accuracy from the Taylor Throating procedure. 
All of my Taylor Throating and crowning operations are done in the lathe and then lapped to remove any tooling marks. I have had a number of guns come into the shop that has been Taylor Throated by handheld device that has a lot of chatter and quite often of center results. Thanks for the questions, I hope this helps. Larry Crow

[Larry Crow]

Long Oval, Thanks for inquiring. Pricing on accuracy enhancement stages. Stage 1, Is $120.00, Stage 2 is $165.00, Stage 3 is $465.00, Stage 4 is $595.00. All prices are not including return shipping and any parts that are used.
Thanks, Larry Crow

[Larry Crow]

TAYLOR THROATING

Is Taylor throat necessary, I think so as I've been doing it for over 35 years. Early on we saw a lot of oversized forcing cones, compound angles and a lot of out of round, off center of the bore, and forcing cones cut. It's impossible in my opinion to accurately recut a forcing cone or to tailor throat a barrel with a hand turned device from the muzzle with the barrel still in the frame if the forcing cone is out of round or out of spec. in any way the cutter will simply follow the out of spec forcing code which in many times will make it larger, more sloppy and usually with poor results.

In the early 90’s John Linebaugh and I we're having a conversation about the pros and cons of Taylor throating at an NRA convention. A couple of gentlemen from the Ruger Collectors Association and one Freedom Arms collector got in on the discussion. We decided to do some Ransom Rest testing when I got back to the shop. The Ruger guys showed up with an RV full of guns and ammo, some factory and some reloads. The plan was to shoot 3 five shot groups with factory ammo and three five shot groups with reloads from a Ransom Rest at 25 yards. Ammo was logged for the before and after the Taylor throating process to be sure we had a fair test with each gun. After each gun was fired they were brought into the shop to be Taylor throated.

In the early 90’s I had Dave Manson grind a set of reamers with eleven degree forcing cone and with a cutter to remove the rifling to the border 1 1/2 times the length of the bullet. This was done in one operation while the barrel was still in the lathe on center line with the bore. I have 22, 32, 357, 40, 41, 44, 45, 475, 500, and 511 bore.

The reason I Taylor throat and then back to the results.

Every custom build will have a new barrel either round or octagon. While the barrel is in the lathe it only makes good sense, after the threads are cut to Taylor throat and cut the forcing cone in one operation with one reamer. With a factory barrel I will set it back usually 2 threads that will typically clean up a factory forcing cone that is out of spec and machine a new forcing cone and Taylor throat while it's still in the machine. On factory barrels it is not unusual to find a thread choke especially on larger bores from the factory. Thread choke occurs when a barrel is over tightened. It will start to collapse the bore and that causes a restriction right past the forcing cone and sizes the bullet down and as it typically rattles down the barrel. The result is poor accuracy. After machining I will lap the forcing cone and the throat to remove any machine marks. All of my reamers have a 1 1/2 degree lead into the rifling which allows the bullet to get in perfect alignment after it leaves the cylinder and easy entry into the rifling. I believe the easier it is for the bullet to get in alignment with the rifling the better the accuracy. Also, this helps eliminate leading that usually builds up in the forcing cone area especially in most factory barrels.

On our big bore revolver conversions there is a felt recoil reduction in my opinion as the bullet has a chance to move a bit before it slams into the rifling. We typically will cut the Taylor throat .001-.00015 over the diameter of the cylinder throat for best accuracy. In all these years I've never had a Taylor throated revolver lose accuracy. Sometimes we have noticed that with jacketed bullets there can be up to a 25 feet per second decrease at times, lead bullets stay very consistent to the original feet per second. Handguns that are shooting jacketed bullets usually benefit from accuracy enhancement which trues up the front of the cylinder and removes any end shake, new forcing cone, Taylor throating and barrel cylinder gap set at .0025.



Over the years we have seen a lot of forcing cones hogged out oversized, by gun tinkerers thinking that would help and it just damaged any accuracy that may have been in the revolver. Back to the testing, we tested 28 Rugers, five Freedom Arms, two model 29 Smiths and 10 Colts and clones. Much care was taken to keep the targets and the ammo labeled together. There was just a few 50- and 100-yard groups shot but most were 25 yards. This whole process took about four days.

Part of the test would involve the ones that had excessive end shake out of square face cylinders. I would leave the barrel shoulder slightly long and would test fire to test the Taylor throat, then bring them back into the shop, square the cylinder, remove the end shake and set the barrel cylinder gap to .0025 and then reshoot the groups. The all improved anywhere from 25% to 60% and none were any worse this is on factory barrels. On a Ruger for example the barrel has 24 threads per inch, so 1 revolution equals .0416 so 2 revolutions would give us roughly .083 and that usually will clean up a bad forcing cone from the factory.

I've heard shooters complain that when Jim Stroh, myself and others, would charge $90.00 years ago to Taylor throat a factory barrel they would say it only takes 2 minutes and that we were ripping customers off. On a standard Taylor throat we would remove the barrel indicated in delays, machine cut it, replace the barrel, index the site, reassemble and test fire. I didn't see any of these naysayers investing in the machinery that we all have investments in. I think this was a bargain. I still do Taylor throating on factory barrels but now it is $125.00. Most want the end shake removed, cylinder machine squared and base of the barrel machine square with proper forcing cone and Taylor throated. Also cut a new crown makes a big difference in accuracy. And then the ejector housing needs to be shortened the same amount the barrel was set back. This has always been a part of our accuracy enhancement program.

A lot of guns shoot very well with a proper cut forcing cone, but I'm always amazed how this simple procedure makes so much difference on many revolvers. I guess this is something shooters and Pistol smiths will be discussing for years to come.

Good Shooting, God Bless,

Larry Crow

[bigbore5]

Do you do the stage 4 on old models. I have heard blocking them is different.

[taffin]

Sept 30, 2024 15:04:23 GMT -5 kings6 said:

Welcome aboard Larry. I recognize your name from past articles and seeing it mentioned in various publications. A great bunch of guys here who keep discussions in the topics of firearms and who stay away from many non gun related topics. This is probably the largest group of custom revolver nuts you will find under one banner!

Cherished Great Shooting Larry Crow .38-40. I've forgotten how to post photos but I would be happy to send it to somebody who can then posted here.

[bigbore5]

Welcome back Mr. Taffin

[Larry Crow]

Oct 1, 2024 10:38:22 GMT -5 bigbore5 said:

Do you do the stage 4 on old models. I have heard blocking them is different.

Yes, normally use an oversized cylinder stop. Larry Crow