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Post by reflex264 on Jul 5, 2024 10:56:02 GMT -5
I finally got my hands on a gun that killed two birds with one stone. 1931 S&W Heavy Duty .38-44. The gun was customized after WWII and after much digging It looks like it was sent to Micro Sight for the work. Sometime since 1960 it had a set of plain target grips added. It has been re-blued at some point in time. It locks up tight and has virtually no end shake, I loaded up some 170 grain Keith bullets with a mid-level 38-44 load. After sighting in I was blown away. After shooting paper I set up some empty 12 gauge hulls for targets. Backed up to 25 yards and shot 2 of them. I laid one down with the primer toward me. Pow! We haven't found it yet. I am going to load up some cast hollow points with 2400 next. I can't wait to hunt with it.  |
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Post by 45MAN on Jul 5, 2024 10:58:25 GMT -5
VINTAGE COOL WITH A LOT OF LIFE AND USE LEFT, SOMETIMES OLD LASTS A LONG TIME, GREAT BUY.
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Post by 1873coltguy on Jul 5, 2024 16:44:35 GMT -5
That's a nice one. A 38-44 is on my list also. Also a custom king super target. 38 special is a favorite round. It can be mild to semi wild and take care of things that the magnum guys snicker at. The firearms from the 19 teens to just the end of the war are some of my favorite ones to own the workmanship is spectacular. Today you have to go to a custom smith to get that quality of hands on.
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awp101
.401 Bobcat
They call me…Andrew
Posts: 2,757
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Post by awp101 on Jul 5, 2024 17:34:49 GMT -5
reflex264, was that from Gunbroker? If not, I had it's twin on my watchlist but the funds never lined up. 
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rWt
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,567
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Post by rWt on Jul 5, 2024 19:10:41 GMT -5
Nice
The HD sights are awful if your eyes have any age to them. The Outdoorsman version made more sense.
Your combo wins the cool factor award!
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Post by needsmostuff on Jul 5, 2024 23:51:59 GMT -5
Is that front sight pined to the factory half moon sight?
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strawhat
.30 Stingray
Posts: 155
Member is Online
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Post by strawhat on Jul 6, 2024 6:53:47 GMT -5
I have a later version of the Heavy Duty, the Model 1950 version.  I am not a big fan of the small bore N frame but this one does very well when using the 358156 bullet loaded long in 38 Special brass with a healthy dose of 2400 powder. (Search for Skeeter Skelton’s load recipe.) Kevin |
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Post by needsmostuff on Jul 6, 2024 9:41:41 GMT -5
Mine is a MUCH later Outdoorsman. Nice gun but by then it was really outshone by the models 27 and 28. By then it was probably an awfully hard gun to sell or justify.  |
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Post by rjm52 on Jul 6, 2024 11:43:22 GMT -5
Information I posted on another site...
"Was looking at a 1948 SHOOTERS BIBLE last night. In the factory cartridge section it has listed the loads that were available in .38-44.
Remington and Peters:
158 grain Lead
158 grain Metal Piercing
110 grain "SPL" (Highway Patrol Metal Piercing)
Winchester:
158 grain Lead
158 grain Metal Piercing
150 grain Metal Piercing
Western:
150 grain Lubaloy Coated
150 grain Metal Piercing
200 grain Lubaloy Coated
In the Factory Ballistics section they list all the Remington and Peters 158 grain loads (Lead and MP) at 1115 fps.
Western 150 grain (MP and Lead) at 1175 fps
Winchester 150 MP at 1175 and the 158 Lead 1115
All were listed from a 5" barrel. It also states that the .38-44 loads were now DISCONTINUED probably because the .357 was introduced.
...a shame that the other Highway Patrol loads were not listed...would have been interesting.
Found a S&W Factory brochure probably from just before the .357 was introduced, as it was not listed as a factory round. The listed velocity of the 158 grain .38-44 was 1125 fps, 444 ft. pounds of energy and penetrated 12 7/8" pine boards spaced 7/8" apart. It did not list a barrel length. By comparison the .38 Special 158 grain bullet was 847 fps with 252 ft. pounds of energy and penetrated 8.5 boards. The .44 Special 246 grain bullet was 767 fps and 323 ft. pounds and penetrated 7.5 boards...
These velocities correspond with the loads in the old Lyman Reloading Manual I have. The Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman and LSWC-HP loads are just a little faster than these old factory 158s and the same as the 150s.
From the BB Website:
Item 20A: 158gr., very soft cast, semi wad cutter, (Keith) hollow cavity, with a gas check. This bullet will mushroom violently on impact and will penetrate roughly 14 inches in human flesh. Again, this bullet is gas checked and will not lead your barrel.
➤ 1,040 fps (379 ft. lbs.) -- S&W mod. 60, 2-inch
➤ 1,059 fps (393 ft. lbs.) -- S&W mod. 66, 2.5-inch
➤ 1,143 fps (458 ft. lbs.) -- Ruger SP101, 3-inch
➤ 1,162 fps (474 ft. lbs.) -- S&W Mt. Gun, 4-inch
ITEM 20H
PRESS RELEASE FOR BUFFALO BORE 38 SPL +P 158gr. HARD CAST OUTDOORSMAN
This load was designed for those who need a deep penetrating 357 mag. or 38 SPL load to be fired from lightweight alloy 357’s and any 38 SPL revolver. Lightweight alloy 357’s develop multiple problems when firing our 180gr. 357 mag. hard cast turbocharged (Item 19A) ammo or any make of full power 357 ammo. Yet many folks want a deep penetrating “outdoor” type of load for their lightweight pocket 357’s, so here it is. Whether you are shooting gators or bears in the head, this load utilizes a hard flat nosed bullet, at sufficient velocity, even from 2-inch barrels, to fully penetrate either.
This load is safe to shoot in all 38SPL and 357 magnum firearms of modern design that are in normal operating condition. In the super lightweight alloy revolvers (around 11-12 oz.) the bullet will not jump crimp under recoil provided you do not subject an unfired round to more than 5 or 6 firings. In all steel guns, even short barreled ones, crimp jump is not an issue as all steel snub-nosed revolvers are much heavier than the alloy versions.
This load utilizes a flash retardant powder that will not blind the shooter in low light conditions, which is important as wildlife and criminals get much more active when darkness comes.
This bullet is hard cast and properly lubed and as such will not substantially lead your barrel. You should find no degradation of accuracy when firing many cylinders full of this ammo without cleaning.
We never use extra long laboratory barrels to produce our advertised velocities, which we feel is dishonest to the customer as those extra long barrels produce extra high velocities, which you cannot duplicate with stock revolvers in the real world. Instead, we use stock firearms and you can see the velocity results below.
➤ 1255 fps -- Ruger GP 100, 6 inch barrel, 357 mag.
➤ 1186 fps -- S&W Combat Masterpiece 6 inch barrel, 38 SPL (circa 1958)
➤ 1146 fps -- S&W Mt. Gun, 4-inch barrel, 357 Mag.
➤ 1167 fps -- S&W Mod. 15, 4 inch barrel, 38 SPL (circa 1968)
➤ 1112 fps -- Ruger SP 101, 3 inch barrel, 38 SPL
➤ 1043 fps -- S&W Mod 66, 2.5 inch barrel, 357 mag.
➤ 989 fps -- S&W Mod 340PD, 1 & 7/8 inch barrel, 357 mag.
➤ 1027 fps -- S&W Mod 642 (pre-dash), 1 & 7/8 inch barrel, 38 SPL
As to reloading these rounds, I posted the following:
Went and found the two old Lyman manuals I have...
The earlier one is missing the cover which had the Edition and Copyright date. It is after 1935 however as the .357 Magnum is listed. The handgun loads have both jacketed and cast bullets listed.
The later one is #43 and dated 1964...just a couple of years before I started reloading... It has cast bullets only.
Earlier Manual: .38 Special High Velocity
148 Grain Cast Hollow Base #358395
Unique 7.7 grains: 1285 fps
2400 13.5 grains : 1380
150 grain 358156 Thompson H.P. Gas Check
Unique 6.4 grains: 1154 fps
2400 13.5 grains: 1227 fps
155 grain Keith Hollow Point and Hollow Base #358439
2400 12.0 grains: 1230 fps
158 grain Thompson Cast Plain Base #358156 (I think that this is a typo as on the previous page of standard .38 Special loads it says Gas Check)
2400 11.8 grains: 1210
No barrel length is listed...
Manual #43 (for most of the same bullets as in the earlier manual)
148 grain HB-WC #335395
Unique: 3.5 grains/720 6.4 grains/1155
2400: 9.0 grains/940 13.5 grains/1380
150 grain L/T GC HP #358156
Unique: 5.0 grains/880 6.8 grains/1100
2400: 9.5 grains/925 13.0/1310
158 grain L/T GC #358156 or #358311 (RN PB)
Unique: 5.0 grains/850 6.0 grains/1060
2400: 9.5 grains/915 12.5 grains/1240
165 grain Keith solid #358429
Unique: 5.0 grains/810 6.0 grains/1010
2400: 9.5 grains/875 10.5 grains/1025
I use the 6.0 grains of Unique load with the Lyman/Thompson GC in both solid and HP. I have not chronoed the 6.0 but my first batch was 5.8 and got the following with the solid bullet.
S&W 649-1 2": 996 fps
S&W 60-10 3": 1044 fps
S&W Heavy Duty 4": 1114 fps
S&W Pre-27 6": 1121 fps
I'm expecting 15-25 fps more on average from the extra 2/10s of a grain..that should put it just above where the original factory loadings were and a little less than the Buffalo Bore.
As to these loads in the little 649 J-frame...it has a second cylinder for .38 Super and 9mm via moon clips. If it will handle 35k psi loads from those cartridges there isn't much to worry about with maybe 25k psi from a .38 Special +P+ that is probably 10K psi less in pressure. Ejection was smooth and primers round...
Start low and work up using a chronograph..."
One correction from above... The HD and Outdoorsman Models were discontinued in the late 1960s...I found High Speed ammo listed into the early 1970s...
Also found that the velocity of the 110 Highway Patrol load was in the 1300s...
Bob
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Post by rjm52 on Jul 6, 2024 11:45:43 GMT -5
One of the posters over on the Cast Boolit Forums pressure tested the Underwood and Buffalo Bore ammo at 27.5k psi using a specially modified TC Contender.
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Post by reflex264 on Jul 7, 2024 21:09:50 GMT -5
Nice The HD sights are awful if your eyes have any age to them. The Outdoorsman version made more sense. Your combo wins the cool factor award! It was. I watched it for a while. I was kind of hunting for an original but now that it's in hand I love it. Shoots great. |
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Post by reflex264 on Jul 7, 2024 21:10:59 GMT -5
I have a later version of the Heavy Duty, the Model 1950 version. View AttachmentI am not a big fan of the small bore N frame but this one does very well when using the 358156 bullet loaded long in 38 Special brass with a healthy dose of 2400 powder. (Search for Skeeter Skelton’s load recipe.) Kevin Yes it is. |
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Post by reflex264 on Jul 8, 2024 7:35:24 GMT -5
Is that front sight pined to the factory half moon sight? Yes it is |
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Post by reflex264 on Jul 8, 2024 7:40:54 GMT -5
I have since stripped that awful finish off of the Brazilian rosewood grips. They are gorgeous. Should get done with them this week. One thing that I think scared everyone including me was the hammer and trigger. I tore the gun apart for a proper cleaning and lube. Whoever buffed off the case hardening left the engagement area alone. I had this gun on watch for a bout a year. They started dropping the price on it 2 months ago till I couldn't stand it. I don't know when I have been as tickled with a gun purchase.
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Post by reflex264 on Jul 8, 2024 7:43:16 GMT -5
Information I posted on another site... "Was looking at a 1948 SHOOTERS BIBLE last night. In the factory cartridge section it has listed the loads that were available in .38-44. I'm expecting 15-25 fps more on average from the extra 2/10s of a grain..that should put it just above where the original factory loadings were and a little less than the Buffalo Bore. As to these loads in the little 649 J-frame...it has a second cylinder for .38 Super and 9mm via moon clips. If it will handle 35k psi loads from those cartridges there isn't much to worry about with maybe 25k psi from a .38 Special +P+ that is probably 10K psi less in pressure. Ejection was smooth and primers round... Start low and work up using a chronograph..." One correction from above... The HD and Outdoorsman Models were discontinued in the late 1960s...I found High Speed ammo listed into the early 1970s... Also found that the velocity of the 110 Highway Patrol load was in the 1300s... Bob Thanks for the info! |
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