Cast heavy full wadcutters in a 308 winchester

[earl54]

This is a specific load I built for a specific use, and I have not shot it at long range (over 100 yards). The bullet is from a mould that was "ruined" by someones hollow point (conversion!!!). Ideal 311284 mould, put it into a lathe and drilled a straight hollow point pin bore. I made a flat point pin and it worked out to .260 diameter. Bullet weight worked out to 214 grains, with lube and GC. I had not used the bullet on game till Feburary of this year. I needed/wanted a CAST bullet that was effective on game/pigs in my area. The load that inspired me was a box of RWS factory loads that was given to me along with a high condition Drilling from an older friend. 8x72r Sauer was the under barrel cartridge, with a 220 grain cast flat point at 1900 FPS, factory velocity spec. The case looks like a 3 inch 22 hornet on a 30/30 with an 8mm bullet.(8x72r) I needed an effective load for pig eradication over feeders, 20 to max 70 yards (which is as far as I can see from either of the tree stands.)135 pigs down with no losses,so it works for this use. A long way to get to my question, I am shooting a 308 win.,18 inch rifle,1750 FPS load,with my bullet. Is it possible that a 2000ish FPS load will stabilize at long range?(10 inch twist)It works so well on pigs, I want to use the 2000FPS load out to 200-250 yards on deer, but don't know if it will be stable/effective at those ranges. Have to much respect for game animals to take chances.

[bigbrowndog]

Stability would be the biggest issue, to me. That is easily sorted out with paper at your desired distance, if no tumbling or keyholes, then it’s up to bullet performance in game.
Also consider what your impact velocity will be at that distance and consider it as well. Your success could easily be attributed to accurate bullet placement at the closer ranges rather than actual bullet form and function. As distance increases that accuracy on placement could decrease.
Trapr

[revolvercranker]

The 311284 was designed specifically for the 30-40 Krag and also saw much use in the 1903 Springfield, both of which have a 1 in 10 twist. 308's generally have a slower twist like 1 in 11 and 1 in 12, although some do have a 1 in 10 twist. I believe you will be just fine with the twist your 308 has. You definitely aren't understablizing your 311284. The nose flatness only to do with aerodymanics with effects the BC of the bullet. BC controls how much velocity the bullet loses over distance and it's trajectory.

[bigbrowndog]

Depending on what your BC winds up being, I guessed at .100, starting the bullet at 2000fps, means it is likely to go trans-sonic before arriving at 200-250 yards. It is that transition between supersonic and subsonic that can create stability issues,…regardless of your twist rate.

Trapr

[revolvercranker]

May 20, 2024 18:26:55 GMT -5 bigbrowndog said:

Depending on what your BC winds up being, I guessed at .100, starting the bullet at 2000fps, means it is likely to go trans-sonic before arriving at 200-250 yards. It is that transition between supersonic and subsonic that can create stability issues,…regardless of your twist rate.

Trapr

Trapr you must have pulled those figures out of your head. In one of my Lyman manuals it gives the BC of the 311284 which is .332.  It just about makes transonic at 500 yards!!  

I can punch it in another ballistic computer and tell you what it says.  

If that bullet has a flat nose on it that will slow it down more, but it will still be good beyond the yardage you states. 

Here's something to think of. Look at the 45-70 barely starting above the speed of sound and yet they shoot exceptional even over 1000 yards. 

[bigbrowndog]

Yes I did based on his claim it was a Wadcutter and 200 grains. Not the original mold style.
His mention of the mold you reference is prior to his actual question. So I took only the info he referenced in his actual question.
It could be my error, but I hate to assume.
Trapr

[revolvercranker]

May 20, 2024 19:07:43 GMT -5 bigbrowndog said:

Yes I did based on his claim it was a Wadcutter and 200 grains. Not the original mold style.
His mention of the mold you reference is prior to his actual question. So I took only the info he referenced in his actual question.

Trapr

I knocked the BC down from .332 to .200 and it's still good to 350 yards.  The OP made a flat pin to make the nose meplat .260 diameter. Remember the nose on the 311284 isn't .308 it's more close to the bore size of .300. If it's less then that it doesn't align as well. 

[jeffh]

Not to sound like a simpleton here, but why not try it on paper at 25, 50 and 100 at lower velocities and then work up if things go well. Paper targets don't run off and die a slow death in the bushes, so not much risk in that way.

I know I can't get full wadcutters to shoot well much past 65 yards out of the 357 Mag, but they are going to be a much lower SD and lose a lot of steam really fast.

[earl54]

The nose of my bullet is a tight slip fit in the bore. My rifle that I built the load for is a cosmetically challenged Remington Model 6 (760).Carbine length barrel,and the internals are only lightly worn,barely used,and will put this load in 1.25 to 1.5 regularly at 100 yards with a 1 to 6x scope,from the bench.I have been casting and reloading for about 40 years,however mostly pistols,rifles were for hunting and were fed jacketed factory and reloads. I wanted to be able to take a corner to corner shot on a grown hog with this gun,and this load and stop them with a properly placed bullet, that I cast and loaded. 

[jeffh]

Sounds like you've done some groundwork. What's stopping you from shooting it at increased velocities to see what it will do?

I get tossing an idea out to get kicked around - not criticizing that you asked.


I shoot a couple Ranch Dog Outdoors designs which are very nearly wadcutters in the 222 and 30/30 to 1800+fps, but have not been able to try them beyond 65 yards. The 22550RF and 311265RF, both gs-check designs, using home-made aluminum GCs and air-cooled wheel weights, tumble-lubed in 45-45-10. I've not tried them to 2kfps, but so far have experienced no leading and very good accuracy.


If that bullet FITS your 308, and the experience you have with it and casting, I's think you're ready to punch paper farther off.

I've found using slower powders can make a difference when going for more velocity. Using IMR 4350 in the 30/30 - all I can get into the case. Unique will do the same, but just at much less velocity. Probably something you've figured out, but thought it worthy of mention. I've cast sine the early seventies and have used the 30/30 since then as well, so I was surprised to find 4350 data on the 30/30. It sure seemed slow for the small case, but there was data, so I gave it a go and it worked well. Most of my CB shooting is with much faster powders.

[revolvercranker]

Just to show you what a slow moving cast bullet from a rifle can do I'll tell you about shooting deer at 100 yards even with a Model 94 Winchester in 32 Winchester Special. I've been reloading and shooting cast for 49 years or more. The bullet was a LEE 175 grain 8mm bullet. Remember the groove size of the 32 Special is .321 just about .002 less then the 8x57 Mauser. The started out at 1750 fps as I chronoed it. She was facing me at an oblique angle her right side of her chest inline with my sight. Alloy was 50/50 wheelweight and lead. The bullet went through her entire body and exited her left ham near the rump. I had hoped to retrieve the bullet, but it didn't happen that way. She went right down dead. While butchering her up her entire insides were exploded. It was worse then what a jackete 7mm Mag would have done. You don't have to have blistering velocity with cast on small to medium size game. BTW a bore rider, such as the nose on that 311284, which BTW I've been shooting for over 40 years should be a tight fit in the bore where the rifling lightly engraves it.

[earl54]

I am working with 4350,reloader 19,and 4831sc to build a accurate 2000FPS load with my bullet in an 18 inch barrel.

[revolvercranker]

May 20, 2024 22:56:56 GMT -5 earl54 said:

I am working with 4350,reloader 19,and 4831sc to build a accurate 2000FPS load with my bullet in an 18 inch barrel.

Slow powders are a good way to go. I've even gone slower in powder and much higher in velocity using the surplus 50 caliber powder and slower cannon powder with a booster in a duplex load.  That's what I've been playing with the past 20 years. If you really want to learn get your a 6.5x55 Swede Model 96 and it will teach you a lot of thing about shooting high velocity cast in a fast twist rifle. Once you learn that, with accuracy, there will be no obstacles in your way. 

[jeffh]

May 20, 2024 22:56:56 GMT -5 earl54 said:

I am working with 4350,reloader 19,and 4831sc to build a accurate 2000FPS load with my bullet in an 18 inch barrel.

OK, I don't know how I missed that in the first post - so you already have it shooting 2kfps.

You're just curious as to whether accuracy will hold up at 200 yards.

Any reason you can't shoot the established load at 200 yards and see how it does?  I ask because I just don't have a place to do that right now myself, so I wonder on some of my loads too - just how well WOULD they shoot at distance if I COULD shoot at that distance.

[revolvercranker]

May 21, 2024 13:14:28 GMT -5 jeffh said:

May 20, 2024 22:56:56 GMT -5 earl54 said:

I am working with 4350,reloader 19,and 4831sc to build a accurate 2000FPS load with my bullet in an 18 inch barrel.

OK, I don't know how I missed that in the first post - so you already have it shooting 2kfps.

You're just curious as to whether accuracy will hold up at 200 yards.

Any reason you can't shoot the established load at 200 yards and see how it does?  I ask because I just don't have a place to do that right now myself, so I wonder on some of my loads too - just how well WOULD they shoot at distance if I COULD shoot at that distance.

Well jeff if you had one of the newer radar chronographs that gives you the BC of your bullet along with the velocity and you punch those figures into one of the better ballistic calcullators you're know exacty what you bullet is doing and where. 

I wanted to shoot a particular high BC 8mm cast bullet from an 8x57 Mauser at 469 yards I sure as hell wasn't going to put a giant cardboard target out there and walk the bullets up to zero my scope. I already had the BC of the bullet so I punched it into the calcullator along with the velocity, altitude, temperature, humidity and where it would be sighted at 100 yards which would be high of course. It said something like 25 inches high at 100 yards.  So I sighted it in for that. Then I went to 469 and it was practically dead nuts on at that distance.  I'm not going to give the group because I don't fighting over it. All I'll say is don't ever sell a 8x57 98 Mauser short!