44mag
.240 Incinerator
Posts: 77
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Post by 44mag on Feb 23, 2024 3:10:48 GMT -5
think it's more than a Kieth bullet... He didn't design a stronger bullet, he designed a bullet to be loaded at higher velocities and thus having more energy but that doesn't change the structure integrity of the bullet. Perhaps you'll share with us your idea of an ideal medium to large game hunting revolver bullet, and a little of your background hunting with them.
Thanks! Perhaps bigbore5 is correct
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44mag
.240 Incinerator
Posts: 77
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Post by 44mag on Feb 23, 2024 7:07:51 GMT -5
Actually Mr. Keith did use a much stronger bullet by using 16:1 alloy. With no antimony or arsenic, his alloy was very pliable. My casts are 9 BHN. 10 -11 really is good for huntin' and can penetrate a skull ? Wheel Weights barely have any alloy, and I can't imagine 16-1 at 10-11 BHN would be hard enough to penetrate. Very pliable.... I would say wouldn't penetrate enough and expand too fast? Heck, Jacket soft points on heavy game don't hold up, and are designed to better than casts at that BHN. Some if not most have a soft alloy core, and fall apart on impact. Most people step up to bonded, partitions, or Barnes TSX or the like. Give me some experiences with Keiths bullets.
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Post by handgunhuntingafield on Feb 23, 2024 7:47:49 GMT -5
I have always just used the same bullet I’d use for deer….for black bear.
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Post by webber on Feb 23, 2024 9:24:24 GMT -5
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Post by bigbore5 on Feb 23, 2024 11:21:11 GMT -5
18 blackbear, 43 whitetail, 17 species African plains game, Shiras moose, inland grizzly, cape buffalo, hippo, etc. 357's,44's, 475L,500L.
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44mag
.240 Incinerator
Posts: 77
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Post by 44mag on Feb 23, 2024 14:29:32 GMT -5
so all the hype about Garret, Buffalo Bore, Double tap, to name a few, or any HARD cast is BS, correct? ! ROGER THAT ! NOW you can see being pulled back and forth with OPINIONS.. OR all the write ups in Lymans manuals over the years, about certain harnesses needed for reliable expansions and penetration. Who's right and who's wrong?
10 - 11 BHN for a thick skinned game like that?? When all I ever heard of penetrating them was with solids.
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Post by revolvercranker on Feb 23, 2024 14:49:24 GMT -5
Well I can tell you so softcored jacketed bullets and cast bullets can penetrate all the way through unless they hit major bone. Even cast hollowpoints of the correct alloy can penetrate all the way through because they perform as boolitdesigner says like Nosler Partitions. They expand, shear the petals, then the solid core goes all the way through. I've been much a cast bullet shooter most my life and I can tell you all about even soft lead alloy rifle bullets penetrated steel! Same bullet leave craters on armor plate gongs. Once many many years ago I was arguing with a superviser at a chemical plant I was working at. Had a blank pipe flange about 5 inches in diameter and in the center (since that section is raised) it was 1 inch thick. These are cast steel. The argument was that my 243 Winchester using a 80 grain hollowpoint wouldn't penetrate it. I took the flange home and shot it, bringing it back the next day. The 243 shot through it, not ever shot though and those that didn't cracked through back of the crater in the flange. He was amazed.
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44mag
.240 Incinerator
Posts: 77
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Post by 44mag on Feb 23, 2024 15:19:26 GMT -5
Well I can tell you so softcored jacketed bullets and cast bullets can penetrate all the way through unless they hit major bone. Even cast hollowpoints of the correct alloy can penetrate all the way through because they perform as boolitdesigner says like Nosler Partitions. They expand, shear the petals, then the solid core goes all the way through. I've been much a cast bullet shooter most my life and I can tell you all about even soft lead alloy rifle bullets penetrated steel! Same bullet leave craters on armor plate gongs. Once many many years ago I was arguing with a superviser at a chemical plant I was working at. Had a blank pipe flange about 5 inches in diameter and in the center (since that section is raised) it was 1 inch thick. These are cast steel. The argument was that my 243 Winchester using a 80 grain hollowpoint wouldn't penetrate it. I took the flange home and shot it, bringing it back the next day. The 243 shot through it, not ever shot though and those that didn't cracked through back of the crater in the flange. He was amazed. lets see who else isn't reading my posts, so far, you are the only one, oh wait no you're not !
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Post by sixshot on Feb 23, 2024 15:19:58 GMT -5
An awful lot of Buffalo (Bison) were killed with pure lead & the penetration was many times amazing, but I think right now we are going on a fishing expedition with all of these variables.
Dick
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Post by bigbore5 on Feb 23, 2024 15:30:10 GMT -5
Where penetration is lost is over expansion. Where the bullet uses too much of it's energy pushing through the larger expanded nose.
I have no desire to try expanding bullets of any kind, rifle or revolver, on thick skin African game. I prefer a heavy flat nosed bullet of about 70% meplat. No smaller meplat either. I prefer around an 18bhn in the 1.4" cartridges and 20bhn in the 1.6". Best achieved with good ol wheel weights.
As to the two North American thick skinned species, the bison and the musk ox, they have been successfully harvested using cast hollow points by some members of this forum. My choice for these is not a hollow point. It's the Arsenal 476-415. This bullet is basically Mr. Keith's design scaled up. At 1275fps mv, this bullet has shown itself capable of breaking both shoulders on cape buff and should do the same on bison.
My preferred bullets for black bear are the MP 359-640 large hp pin cast at 12bhn, powder coated, with 1300fps muzzle velocity to limit over penetration which may hit a very valuable dog. For the 500L, I use my design 511-355H swc from Accurate, cast 15bhn, velocity of 1400fps at the muzzle. It will break both shoulders on 500+ pound black bear and exit. I've never recovered one from game, but there does appear to be a tiny bit of expansion. The MP 511-525 large hp is pretty impressive as well.
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Post by revolvercranker on Feb 23, 2024 15:33:38 GMT -5
An awful lot of Buffalo (Bison) were killed with pure lead & the penetration was many times amazing, but I think right now we are going on a fishing expedition with all of these variables. Dick I've been saying that same things for years Dick.
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44mag
.240 Incinerator
Posts: 77
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Post by 44mag on Feb 23, 2024 16:59:18 GMT -5
An awful lot of Buffalo (Bison) were killed with pure lead & the penetration was many times amazing, but I think right now we are going on a fishing expedition with all of these variables. Dick I've been saying that same things for years Dick. And I've been saying, for years, the perfect shot isn't always predictable or available, and in some cases, not feasible. A dangerous situation a shot to stop them is necessary, regardless where the shot is placed.
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Post by northerngos on Feb 23, 2024 17:17:13 GMT -5
so all the hype about Garret, Buffalo Bore, Double tap, to name a few, or any HARD cast is BS, correct? ! ROGER THAT ! NOW you can see being pulled back and forth with OPINIONS.. OR all the write ups in Lymans manuals over the years, about certain harnesses needed for reliable expansions and penetration. Who's right and who's wrong? 10 - 11 BHN for a thick skinned game like that?? When all I ever heard of penetrating them was with solids. I think you are confusing hard and tough. Garrett is an example of a maker who loses a lot of profit margin to their insistence in using an alloy that is as hard as it can be without fracturing on hard bone. Because they care most about performance. They use an extremely tough alloy.
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Post by revolvercranker on Feb 23, 2024 17:39:44 GMT -5
And I've been saying, for years, the perfect shot isn't always predictable or available, and in some cases, not feasible. A dangerous situation a shot to stop them is necessary, regardless where the shot is placed. I think most are talking about hunting in the U.S of A. Those pure lead bullets back in the olden days for Bison were large calibers with lots of weight and they could do major damage to large bone structures. The Native Americans got along fine with spears, bows & arrows, and running them off cliffs. Have you ever seen videos of the solid iron cannon balls they shot during the sail ship days and what it does to wood? No it just didn't put a hole through it, it shattered it into many lethal splinter shrapnel. Yes I know irrelevant to the topic.
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44mag
.240 Incinerator
Posts: 77
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Post by 44mag on Feb 23, 2024 18:00:44 GMT -5
so all the hype about Garret, Buffalo Bore, Double tap, to name a few, or any HARD cast is BS, correct? ! ROGER THAT ! NOW you can see being pulled back and forth with OPINIONS.. OR all the write ups in Lymans manuals over the years, about certain harnesses needed for reliable expansions and penetration. Who's right and who's wrong? 10 - 11 BHN for a thick skinned game like that?? When all I ever heard of penetrating them was with solids. I think you are confusing hard and tough. Garrett is an example of a maker who loses a lot of profit margin to their insistence in using an alloy that is as hard as it can be without fracturing on hard bone. Because they care most about performance. They use an extremely tough alloy. Ok, so what's your point ? LOL Maybe just admit that Keith's bullets are only good for the perfect shots..... oh wait, silly me, articles do reference "racking" shots. Was he always the perfect shot ?
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