jeffh
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Post by jeffh on Sept 8, 2024 13:25:43 GMT -5
Reviving this one so anyone who originally expressed interest (or disdain) has a shot at the info. This cartridge still taunts me. Once in a while, I do a search and see what's what and the price of the barrel I WANT (for a Contender Carbine) is nearly $600, without a front sight.
I will add that the "new" SSK50 is supposedly OK for this chambering, per SSK. I know it was discussed regarding the original Contender here and I'm not disputing what was said, but wanted to add that note. Apparently, MGM has it on the "G2-only" list. I HAVE an unfired SSK50, so I could go either way myself.
Right now, Midway has 18" "Hunter" barrels in 360BH for $307.
I really want a 24" to put sights on and shoot like a miniature 38-55 - sort of kill two birds with one stone thing. Fun goof-off gun, which is still a viable deer-hunting tool.
But get THIS: Midway also has 16" 357 Max SSK "Hunter" barrels for $286!
Dang, man! These are killer prices and the fact that both are available so cheap really muddles one's choice. I already have a 20" 357 Max MGM barrel (not yet fired) that I bought 7(?) years ago for $375!
Now, HERE's the heart-breaker...
EABCO has a 24" 360BH barrel for $399, which isn't bad at all and WHAT I WANT!
BUT,... what the H' were they THINKING? A 1:12" TWIST??
I was literally reaching for my wallet when I saw that. The others are 1:16" (my preference) or 1:14" (what my 357 MAG Carbine barrel is), but 1:12? I don't even know what to think.
Bear in mind that the SSK "Hunter" barrels come with a TSOB scope base and are threaded for a can (with thread protector) if that matters to anyone here. Those "Hunter" barrels are the best price on a Contender barrel going.
So, anyway, I wanted to share what I've found recently, in case anyone here is still interested. One of my interests in this is that, while I do have 357 Max brass, it may get shoved down the production priority list with the new "straightwall" 35s hitting the market. Maybe buy more NOW as a hedge against another great cartridges fading into obscurity for the sake of marketing brilliance.
The 357 Max uses the same (magnum-like) powders as my 357 Mag, and the same as many magnums all of us have been shooting forever. PLUS some which may be a tad slow for some of our traditional pistol-cartridge magnums. The 350L, I'm certain, would be happy with those powders too.
The 360 BH seems to me to be the upper limit for most of those powders, too big for anything faster, but too small for much of anything slower, BUT, you can make cases from 30/30 cases and PROBABLY shoot some of the faster rifle powders, which are too slow for the 'Max or 350L, and still at least get 357 Max velocities, which seem to be "enough" for a lot of hunting anyway. Oh, but large primers are hard to find and expensive, but they ARE starting to show up again.
SO much to think about.
I will TRY to keep up with this thread between family health issues/care-giving, but mainly wanted to share some info with the rest of you who posted in this thread before.
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pacecars
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Post by pacecars on Sept 8, 2024 13:40:32 GMT -5
I would rather have a little faster twist than a little slower twist
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Post by Encore64 on Sept 8, 2024 13:59:03 GMT -5
I prefer the 1-12" myself. I find it more suitable for launching heavier bullets.
The 180-220 bullets stabilize fine in my 1-12". Also, heavier cast launched at reduced velocities show great accuracy.
The slower 1-16" will stabilize out to some distance. But, as velocity and rotational spin drop, accuracy goes south.
The 360 Buckhammer is advertised as good out to 20p yards. A faster spin makes that possible...
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jeffh
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Post by jeffh on Sept 8, 2024 14:21:19 GMT -5
180 would be the lightest I'd consider practical in this chambering.
I have a doll of a 190 - the RDO, and the RCBS 200. I think my plan would have been to focus on the 190. To get the "best" velocities (something worth straying from the 357 Max), the powder selection is narrow, from what can see so far, but other factors still make it interesting.
Not interested in buying more moulds,... oh, wait, I just did. Danged 35 calibers - the only one I really can't get down to ONE or maybe even TWO moulds for.
@encore64, what chambering are you using the 1:12" twist in? A 360BH, something else?
I'm at least glad to see it's workable with something less than 250 grains. I'd only go that heavy if I were shooting a 358W or 35 Whelen, but that's a personal preference thing.
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Post by Encore64 on Sept 8, 2024 14:24:36 GMT -5
I bought the Henry Single Shot 360 Buckhammer. It also came with a 1-12" Twist.
Very accurate with everything so far...
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jeffh
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Post by jeffh on Sept 8, 2024 14:34:00 GMT -5
That's good to hear.
Thank you.
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kb9424
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Post by kb9424 on Sept 8, 2024 19:30:33 GMT -5
The only logical solution is to buy both the 357 Max and 360 Buckhammer, especially at those prices!!! I have both calibers with barrels from MGM and SSK. The 357 MGM barrel shoots well with Grizzly ammo and the SSK 360 handles the 200gn Remington very well. I really wanted the 1-12” twist for the 360 but the 1-14” seems to work well thus far. I like the 357 Max for the kids since I can use 38 special or 357 mag for training.
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jeffh
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Post by jeffh on Sept 8, 2024 20:25:13 GMT -5
Already have the 357 Max, just have never fired this one.
I'm looking at cast bullet handloads only, which the 357 Max, at 1:16" will be fine - has been in previous 357 Max's, at least up to 200 grains.
The 1:12" in the EABCO barrel seemed a bit extreme. 25% faster sort of took me by surprise.
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Post by lar4570 on Sept 8, 2024 22:07:17 GMT -5
I wonder if the 1:12 twist of the 360BH will limit upper end velocities with cast bullet stability?
How fast can you push cast in your Henry single shot? And still retain accuracy without the bullet spinning too fast and becoming unstable?
I'm not sure where the limit is with 35 cal cast? My Cast Bullet test rifle has a 1:14 twist Krieger in 30-06XCB. I can get to 2800fps with good accuracy. Anything faster seems to require a 1:16 twist...
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jeffh
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Post by jeffh on Sept 9, 2024 11:42:21 GMT -5
I wonder if the 1:12 twist of the 360BH will limit...
I'm wondering too, but about how fast you can push cast without having to make it too hard. I try to use alloy no harder than air-cooled wheel weights, and prefer 50/50 ACWW/Pb for hunting.
I ran into trouble with 1:9" twist in the 223 with my softish cast at around 1800 fps. I was OK with that, because I wanted a 222 for cast anyway and 721 with 1:14" twist. I don't have to be too picky about alloy ingredients, hardening, etc.
My 357 Mag carbine barrel is 1:14", which seems popular these days, but my 357 Max carbine barrel is 1:16", as were previous 357 Mag and Max barrels I'd used. I shot up to 200 grains in either with no issues.
What occurs in my mind regarding faster twists these days is a lot of people wanting to shoot sub-sonic with heavy (long) bullets. Going that much slower linearly, the faster twist is needed to get the bullet spinning fast enough to stabilize. So the 1:12" in the 360 BH sort of threw me. Nothing wrong with shooting sub-sonic stuff - I do - but you can do that with a 38 Special - no need for all the extra powder space in the new 360 BH case, which is touted for its velocity increase over the existing 35 cal straight-wall rounds. Just seemed counter-intuitive.
Not killing me to wait longer and see how 1:12" does with cast for others. I have the 'Max and don't use it, and the BH would mainly be a fun to shoot gun with extra potential if I ever got a chance to hunt again.
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Post by lar4570 on Sept 9, 2024 17:46:13 GMT -5
I to have switched to 50-50 WW-Pb for hunting bullets and I've been really happy with it. I have not tested it in rifles yet, just all the handgun calibers from 45Colt +p up to the 500s. The lightest bullet I've tried in the 500S&W was a 400gn group buy mold. I think I stopped somewhere around 1650ish, and didn't have any problems.
With the 1:12 twist in the 360BH, hopefully someone will push the limits and see where a 50-50 mix will start to strip or overrun the rifling. Sorry, can't remember the correct term today...
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Post by boolitdesigner on Sept 10, 2024 20:47:45 GMT -5
The 360 BH is not capable of telling you that. You need to go quite a bit higher in velocity to do that.
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jeffh
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Post by jeffh on Sept 11, 2024 9:14:44 GMT -5
The 360 BH is not capable of telling you that. You need to go quite a bit higher in velocity to do that.
So, how much faster do you think? What numbers are you looking at?
I've not seen cast data for it yet, but jacketed is showing 2500 fps for 180s and 1300 fps for 200s. NOT discounting what Encore64 said about 1:12", but mulling this over regarding CAST, especially cast which is not overly hard.
I'm thinking that I have a perfect bullet for this case in the RDO 190 grain RFN. I have converted three of four cavities to plain-base, left one with the gas check shank, in case I want to push it really hard. Until or unless I get a 360, this bullet serves well in the 357 Mags and Max. From the mag case, air-cooled wheel-weights, home-made aluminum gas check, tumble-lubed it can do 1800 fps in a 18" barrel - no leading, no pressure signs, excellent accuracy. Never clocked it in previous Max barrels.
Would I ever NEED (or even want) to push that bullet to something like 2300 fps, I doubt it, but it would be interesting to know if I could, so I would probably at least experiment. Flattening trajectory a bit to shoot at 200 yards would be interesting/fun. I actually only shoot at wood chucks or coyotes past a hundred yards or so anyway, so this is really more about curiosity.
I know - what's the point of the new, longer, fatter (than the 357 Max) case if I don't push it harder, right? Actually, I've been experiencing a desire to have a 38-55 Contender Carbine (24" barrel, so "Contender RIFLE?"), but don't want to recomplicate the logistics by buying new new moulds, another brass case to keep an eye out for, etc. This case could scratch that itch and potentially be legitimately useful for more than scratching an itch. I'm vested in the 30/30, so brass would never be an issue, and I'm well vested in 35 cal moulds.
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Post by bradshaw on Sept 11, 2024 10:37:12 GMT -5
Reviving this one so anyone who originally expressed interest (or disdain) has a shot at the info. This cartridge still taunts me. EABCO has a 24" 360BH barrel for $399, which isn't bad at all and WHAT I WANT! BUT,... what the H' were they THINKING? A 1:12" TWIST?? ***** .35 WhelanWhen Remington made the .35 Whelan a SAAMI standard, it hung a 1:16” twist on the excellent Model 760 pump rifle. Made me wonder whether Remington had a stack of .35 Remington barrels gathering dust. Handled 200 grain fine; not so cheery with a 250 spitzer. Ruger .357 MaximumDuring development of the Ruger SRM, Bill Ruger, Jr., had ten 10-1/2” barrels fitted to prototype SRM-2. Twists 1:10" to 1:60"1) 1:10 2) 1:12 3) 1:14 4) 1:16 5) 1:18-3/4 6) 1:24 7) 1:32 8) 1:40 ? 9) 1:48 ? 10) 1:60 My targeting SRM-2 @ 100 yards included groups of 30 rounds (5 full cylinders), and 48 rounds (8 full cylinders). Remington experimental ammo was loaded with the Remington .357 158 JHP. Remington had yet to make its 180 JHP. Ammo came out of Remington’s Lonoke, Arkansas plant, which had a lot of ground to cover to approach skills of Remington in Bridgeport, Connecticut. Less shooting was done with my handloads, which included 180 and 200 grain .358 bullets. Dan Wesson Arms M40 .357 Maximum, 8” bbl1) 1:14 2) 1:16 3) 1:18-3/4 Revolver barrels with 1:14 twist are silhouette accurate @ 200 meters with Hornady and Sierra .358 200 Round Nose and Hornady 200 Spire Point. Revolvers with 1:16 twist fail to stabilize the longer Hornady 200 Spire Point. The higher velocity from a carbine or rifle barrel compensates somewhat for a slow twist, but it takes a lot of velocity to make up for a little bit faster twist. For a given caliber, a long bullet must be spun faster than a short bullet. Over-spinning a bullet may stress engraving a lead bullet or stress a paper-thin jacket. A bullet with low Ballistic Coefficient is less twist-sensitive, while a high BC is more sensitive to twist. Gunsmiths such as Mike Bellm and Dave Logosz have made a lot of pistols for silhouette and hunting, and should be helpful with specific bullet & twist info. I would try IMR 4198 with heavy bullets in a .360 Buckhammer (don’t have one), and probably try a compressed load or two. My powder search would begin in the burn zone of IMR 4198 and Reloder #7, with loads concentrating on accuracy, not velocity. David Bradshaw
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jeffh
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Post by jeffh on Sept 11, 2024 10:59:25 GMT -5
THAT is some awesome history, Mr. Bradshaw!
Thank you for the proven insight.
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