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Post by starmetal47 on Nov 11, 2022 14:06:55 GMT -5
Lee.... Like your father, I used Remington .308 BR brass to form. I did not load it full length. Plus, I used a lot of ball powder in various .308 Winchester loads----BL-C1, BL-C2, Accurate 2520, Win 748, including others. And, in 7-08, Win 760/H414 (same), etc. Vast majority of my bottleneck silhouette rounds were loaded with IMR or Hodgdon 4895, the benchmark of medium burn rifle powders. Very accurate 7mm TCU, including with Sierra boattail match bullets, with Accurate 2460, but that is an exception to loading ball in bottleneck handgun cartridges, with 748 in 7mm BR the other notable. Jim Stekl specifically mentioned Winchester 748 as resistant to small primer ignition in the full length .308 case, also specifically the 7-08. Around this time Stekl also told me of glazing a bench rest barrel with ball powder, absolutely could not remove fouling (or whatever it was)which wrecked bench rest accuracy. Jim named the powder, buy I don’t recall it. That set Jim against ball powder for bench rest. We’ve experienced great accuracy with spheric propellants, but specific experiences inform education----such as the alarming heat you experienced with Hodgdon Lil Gun. It would cross my grain to deal with small primer .45 Colt at the loading bench. In the .45 ACP, I just swapped small pocket brass to keep it away from the bench. David Bradshaw Do you know that if you use Kroil oil and Shooters Choice in any order in your barrel that it will ruin it? I have a 6.5 Creedmoor and I got it with large rifle primers for the fact I don't feel the SR primer is enough. Like I mentioned I actually had hangfires using SR primers in my 450 Bushmaster with ball powders. I did not like that one iota. I have SP primer 45acp and they work just fine and I don't have a problem keep the SP and LP primer brass separated. I feel that Starline causes a lot of problems with some products they come out with, but on the other hand they supply us with brass that is hard to find otherwise. Many worship Starline brass, but I'm going to tell you it's not the best. I'm not saying it's junk either. |
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Post by sixshot on Nov 11, 2022 14:40:32 GMT -5
Are you saying that Kroil or Shooters Choice is OK but using one behind the other will ruin a barrel? Just wanting to clarify your point, thanks.
Dick
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jeffh
.375 Atomic
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Post by jeffh on Nov 11, 2022 15:08:36 GMT -5
Hang onto those cases!
I have a very small handful of 357 Mag cases with LARGE primer pockets.
While neither coolest, sexiest or my even my absolute favorite cartridge, the 357 is my fallback, last-ditch, main revolver/carbine cartridge.
If it ever comes to it, and I can't find or afford the primers I NEED, I have an element of flexibility in that I have SOME cases I can use with the "other" primer.
I know small-primer 45 ACP brass is a pain in some guys' backsides, but I'd be setting back 500 of those for just such an occasion.
Over a decade ago, I started a serious cull of the superfluous. One of the dangers in this is hemming oneself in by eliminating alternates - "plan-Bs," which would save your bacon if what you standardized on becomes extinct. Look at how many "too tough to die" cartridges and guns have gone out of production lately. Having brass with SMALL and LARGE primer pockets enhances one's chances in assuring what they shoot doesn't achieve scrap-value pretty much overnight.
I'd LOVE to have a couple hundred cases, for everything I shoot, formed with primer pockets contrary to the norm. That said, I am down to 222 Remington, 223 Remington*, 30/30, 38/357 Mag/357 Max and 44 Special, all with cast only, except for the 223 and I shoot the 223 so rarely that a box of 20 loaded rounds may actually last me the rest of my life. So, for me at least, this would be a boon. Not everyone could necessarily benefit the same way.
Nothing I shoot is handicapped with the need for high pressures or jacketed bullets, so it's easy enough for me to take such a position. Maybe not so much for others. I may also just be weird too.
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jeffh
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,749
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Post by jeffh on Nov 11, 2022 15:12:01 GMT -5
Well, OK. You got me there.
Still, hang onto those SPP 45 Colt cases, but hide them way in the back, under your bench and never admit to having them.  |
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Post by Lee Martin on Nov 11, 2022 15:47:21 GMT -5
Do you know that if you use Kroil oil and Shooters Choice in any order in your barrel that it will ruin it? You better tell a few generations of short-range benchrest shooters that using Kroil and Shooters Choice in any order ruined their barrels. In fact, many competitors mixed the two together. Don't know where you heard that rumor, but there's absolutely no truth to it. I use Kroil followed by Butch's to clean all of my rifle barrels. -Lee www.singleactions.com"Chasing perfection five shots at a time" |
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Post by starmetal47 on Nov 11, 2022 16:26:11 GMT -5
Are you saying that Kroil or Shooters Choice is OK but using one behind the other will ruin a barrel? Just wanting to clarify your point, thanks. Dick Yes one behind the other and the final part of the equation TO FIRE THE RILFE with jacketed bullets. What happens for some reason unknown is it causes the bore to jacket foul really bad and the bad thing is it's extremely hard to get the fouling out. |
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Post by starmetal47 on Nov 11, 2022 16:30:03 GMT -5
You better tell a few generations of short-range benchrest shooters that using Kroil and Shooters Choice in any order ruined their barrels. In fact, many competitors mixed the two together. Don't know where you heard that rumor, but there's absolutely no truth to it. I use Kroil followed by Butch's to clean all of my rifle barrels. -Lee www.singleactions.com"Chasing perfection five shots at a time" That came from the a Lothar Walther barrel manufacturing company employee and not some peon either. The benchresters were told. You didn't read that I said it happens to every barrel and every time you shoot it. |
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Post by Lee Martin on Nov 11, 2022 16:58:45 GMT -5
I still don't buy it. Thousands of BR shooters over many decades outweighs one guy's word. And did he give you a reason why? (don't care if he worked for Walther either). I've never heard of Kroil and Shooter's Choice being a problem. If it was, folks trying to shoot sub-0.2" aggs wouldn't use it. Like I said, I've used Kroil and Butch's on dozens of barrels (Butch's is every bit as strong as Shooter's Choice, maybe even more potent. Shooter's Choice doesn't contain ammonia). My bore scope and more importantly my targets show Kroil and Butch's to be very effective. Kroil is just penetrating oil. Nothing more, nothing less. It contains hydrotreated petroleum, distillates, and alcohol. None of that hurts metal. And when mixed with Shooter's choice, what's the by product? Truth be told, most bore cleaners have a Kroil-esque component to them. -Lee www.singleactions.com"Chasing perfection five shots at a time" |
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Post by starmetal47 on Nov 11, 2022 17:05:12 GMT -5
I still don't buy it. Thousands of BR shooters over many decades outweighs one guy's word. And did he give you a reason why? (don't care if he worked for Walther either). I've never heard of Kroil and Shooter's Choice being a problem. If it was, folks trying to shoot sub-0.2" aggs wouldn't use it. Like I said, I've used Kroil and Butch's on dozens of barrels (Butch's is every bit as strong as Shooter's Choice, maybe even more potent. Shooter's Choice doesn't contain ammonia). My bore scope and more importantly my targets show Kroil and Butch's to be very effective. Kroil is just penetrating oil. Nothing more, nothing less. It contains hydrotreated petroleum, distillates, and alcohol. None of that hurts metal. And when mixed with Shooter's choice, what's the by product? Truth be told, most bore cleaners have a Kroil-esque component to them. -Lee www.singleactions.com"Chasing perfection five shots at a time" I'm going to talk to him this evening. See what other details I can gather. The guy is also a geophysisist and is now dummy for sure. Have known him for about 20 years. He told some benchresters and offered to shoot their rifle, or they shoot them, after cleaning with Shooters Choice and Kroil and none of would do it. Guess they had something to worry about. I know all the trouble he had getting the fouling out of his bore and yes the rifle shot perfect and didn't have jacket fouling above normal till after he used Shooters Choice and Kroil. |
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Post by Lee Martin on Nov 11, 2022 17:22:24 GMT -5
Let us know what he says. Specifics would be great (I majored in Chemistry and consider myself a amateur metallurgist...I'm a geek when it comes to this sort of thing). BTW, I just spoke to the tech guy at Krieger. He said Kroil mixed with solvents like Wipe-Out, Shooter's Choice, Butch's, etc, is a very safe and effective way to clean barrels. Tony Boyer even speaks of it in his book. Sounds like the guy had one barrel that died on him after the Kroil/Shooter's Choice combination. I highly doubt it was the solvents. -Lee www.singleactions.com"Chasing perfection five shots at a time" |
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Post by lockhart on Nov 11, 2022 17:29:55 GMT -5
I bought a Remington XP-100 in 7Br when they first came out* Absolutely NO brass available at
the time I bought it* I had the complete set of RCBS form dies, and made my first 100 pieces of
BR brass out of commercial 308 brass, with the large primer pockets* Handloader magazine had some
loading data, and I used that* I even shot my first IHMSA matches using that brass* The Handloader
loads were scary fast, when I finally got around to chronographing them! I used that old XP-100 for
about 25 years* Only pistol I ever shot the barrel out! Sold it to Bob Thomas, and he put a new-old
barrel on it, and then sold it to one of his other friends*
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Post by sixshot on Nov 12, 2022 2:17:19 GMT -5
Well I still have Kroil & Shooters Choice on the shelf although I only have a couple of single shot pistol barrels left for shooting rock chucks in the spring, but as far as I know both of them shoot just fine & I haven't changed anything in my cleaning method for many years, not sure what's going on with these solvents unless the companies have changed something I don't know about. Sure doesn't show up on targets or rock chucks.
Dick
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Post by bradshaw on Nov 12, 2022 8:46:01 GMT -5
I bought a Remington XP-100 in 7Br when they first came out* Absolutely NO brass available at the time I bought it* I had the complete set of RCBS form dies, and made my first 100 pieces of BR brass out of commercial 308 brass, with the large primer pockets* Handloader magazine had some loading data, and I used that* I even shot my first IHMSA matches using that brass* The Handloader loads were scary fast, when I finally got around to chronographing them! I used that old XP-100 for about 25 years* Only pistol I ever shot the barrel out! Sold it to Bob Thomas, and he put a new-old barrel on it, and then sold it to one of his other friends* ***** Formed 7mm/308x1-3/4” from Lake City .308. Came to appreciate the ease of forming down to 1-3/4” when Remington released the XP-100 7mm BR, and the work to form down to 1-1/2”. Jim Stekl was furious Remington released the XP unlimited pistol without making brass available. I used the Remington .308 BR case (with small primer pocket) exclusively for 7mm BR. According to Remington, the BR case was annealed lower than standard .308 to ease forming. I did not try forming military brass down to 1-1/2” in the RCBS form die set, thinking at the time it would be more tedious. When I shot with Bob Thomas, he used a Wichita .308 for Unlimited, loading Speer 180 SP over 30/4895. Bob shot an aperture rear, with Lyman 17A Globe front, with reticle made by tiny drill depression in lexan insert. David Bradshaw |
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Post by starmetal47 on Nov 12, 2022 11:53:27 GMT -5
Well I still have Kroil & Shooters Choice on the shelf although I only have a couple of single shot pistol barrels left for shooting rock chucks in the spring, but as far as I know both of them shoot just fine & I haven't changed anything in my cleaning method for many years, not sure what's going on with these solvents unless the companies have changed something I don't know about. Sure doesn't show up on targets or rock chucks. Dick Hey Dick I'm trying to find out if Shooter's Choice at one time did have ammonia in it. I know it doesn't know. I have an old bottle of it in my shop and I need to read the label on it. |
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Post by starmetal47 on Nov 12, 2022 12:34:23 GMT -5
Let us know what he says. Specifics would be great (I majored in Chemistry and consider myself a amateur metallurgist...I'm a geek when it comes to this sort of thing). BTW, I just spoke to the tech guy at Krieger. He said Kroil mixed with solvents like Wipe-Out, Shooter's Choice, Butch's, etc, is a very safe and effective way to clean barrels. Tony Boyer even speaks of it in his book. Sounds like the guy had one barrel that died on him after the Kroil/Shooter's Choice combination. I highly doubt it was the solvents. -Lee www.singleactions.com"Chasing perfection five shots at a time" Okay talked to my friend last evening. First let me clear up I said he was a geophysisist, that is incorrect, he is a geochemist and metalurgist amongst a bunch of things. First Kroil is a penetrating, a very good one in fact. He said that it penetrates into the pores of the metal very efficiently, in fact better then just about any penetrating oil. The bad thing is it drags the dissovled copper molecules that it and Shooter's Choice have unloosened deep into those pores. It makes it practically imposible to get that out. Shooter's Choice use to have ammonia in it and I believe it no longer does. That may or may not be culprit that is causing the problem. The other thing he discussed is the wiping of or cleaning the Kroil/Shooter'sChoice out of the bore after swabbing it. It appears the worse way is to swab it with a couple dry patches and then shooting. He said that leaving it really wet didn't seem to cause the problem. I want to insert this post from the M14 Forum which the poster is talking about what my friend and I are: It should be noted that this mixture can cause problems when used in stainless barrels, particularly when used to clean a hot bore between strings. The Kroil "pulls" the ammonia from the Shooter's Choice, or most other heavy ammonia solvent, into the pores of the barrel steel. If fired before it has time to dry, dry patches won't get it all out of the pores, it will etch the barrel. This was noticed and warned about several years ago by bench rest shooter's, but alot of us don't follow that form of shooting. It does not seem to affect regular carbon steel barrels. The solution to the problem is to run several patches wet with denatured alcohol thru the bore after you have used dry patches to remove the majority of the solvent. Denatured alcohol kills the ammonia and pulls it from the pores of the barrel eliminating the problem. Montana Extreme Copper solvents are extracted from horse urine not man made and do not seem to cause this problems but are very good copper removers. I asked my friend if it mattered if the barrel was stainless or chrome moly and he replied no. Now here is something interesting. A group from Lothar Walther took their personal rifles out to shoot and test this cleaning method. It severely fouled the bores from chamber to muzzle. Some rifles were noteably very accurate and the accuracy dropped off almost immediately. My friend discovered this when shooting his CZ 416 Rigby. He spent a lot of time since then trying to get that fouling out. I believe he said he had to lap it. Now an interesting note he said that he and his Lother Walther group could produce this fouling at WILL. Remember now this is the mixture using the older Shooter's Choice with ammonia in it. Furthermore Kroil came down to the Lothar Walther plant to discuss this problem. My friend said that Kroil was very pissed about it. At first Kroil thought he was attacking their product and this was cleared up within ten minutes. I believe the final results of the meeting was Kroil wasn't recommending this mixing of solvent and their product. So it appears that how you clean or wipe the Kroil/Shooter'sChoice out of your bore is important WITH ONLY THE OLD SHOOTER'S CHOICE WITH AMMONIA. Now I just checked my OLD bottle of Shooter's Choice and it does contain 5% ammonia. Back to Kroils ability to penetrate: Kano Laboratories Aero Kroil penetrating lubricant loosens frozen metal parts - including rusted nuts and bolts - by producing a molecular affinity to metal, which gives Kroil the ability to propel itself into millionth inch spaces. So all this may not matter anymore since Shooter's Choice isn't the same stuff anymore and we know it doesn't contain Ammonia now. We'll have to check on that as I have moved on to other solvent and not checked the newer bottles. I can't say for certain if other solvents mixed with Kroil will have the same effect on your bore. I'm kind of sorry to have brought this up and many in the gun world are very set in their ways and firmly refused to believe or hear something that they disagree with. |
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