|
|
Post by pbcaster45 on May 15, 2022 17:26:30 GMT -5
First the obligatory gun porn...   I learned today that the old loads posted by Kent Lomont and Lee Jurras in the 70s may not be as outlandish as I thought! I'm going to have to step up the powder charges until I get consistent slide lock - just like Trapr told me! D'Oh! You live and learn! I haven't shot any groups yet, the target board at the range had been blasted into oblivion and it was way too hot for me! Just fired 5-rounds of each load to get some baseline data. Southern Ballistic Research (SBR) 44 AMP Bullet: 240 gr. Hornady XTP (SL44AM5) Powder: H110 or W296 23.4 - 23.6 grs. Primer: Winchester Large Pistol Case: Starline (Crimp Diameter 0.4570) OAL: 1.5890 - 1.5935 (Crimp is just above cannelure) Average Velocity: 1470 fps Comments: Broken down factory ammo specs. Bullet: SBR 44 AMP 240 Grain Hornady XTP (Factory) Case: Starline OAL: 1.600 – 1.605 Average Velocity: 1503 fps ES: 24 SD: 8 Comments: Multiple stovepipes. Bullet: Sierra 180 gr. JHC Powder: Winchester 296 27.0 grs. Primer: Winchester Large Pistol Case: Starline OAL: 1.600 – 1.605 Average Velocity: 1668 fps ES: 200 SD: 76 Comments: Multiple stovepipes, underpowered Bullet: Hornady 200 gr. XTP-HP Powder: Winchester 296 26.0 grs. Primer: CCI-350 Case: Starline OAL: 1.600 Average Velocity: 1723 fps ES: 40 SD: 16 Comments: All five test rounds stovepiped. |
|
|
|
Post by rivercane on May 15, 2022 20:46:18 GMT -5
As a longtime Desert Eagle owner, I have to say... this is cooler. I've always wanted an Auto Mag. Keep us posted on reliability.
|
|
|
|
Post by bradshaw on May 16, 2022 6:56:34 GMT -5
pbcaster45.... Jerry Moran knew persons involved with the early Auto Mags. Moran also conversant with Lee Jurras and Kent Lamont. My experience was not cheery. As I wore a Model 29 my waking hours, outstanding accuracy and utter reliability were inextricable givens. This was the early 1970’s, before Handgun Silhouette. When Lee Jurras’ handgun silhouette challenges of 1975 & ’76 evolved into the International Handgun Metallic Silhouette Association (IHMSA) as the sanctioning body, Auto Mags chambered in .44 Auto Mag and .357 Auto Mag proved accurate for the task. There were two categories of competition: Production and Unlimited. A separate Standing category embraced Production guns.
I don’t recall promoters of the Auto Mag mention breakage. IHMSA silhouetters sure did. Serious competitors carried a box of spare parts. Elgin Gates carried his Auto Mags with extra parts in a suitcase and, at the 1977 International Championships, showed me an Auto Mag bolt with a missing locking lug, which had snapped while shooting. “That’s $65,” said Gates (back then you might buy a used Super Blackhawk for 65 skins). Scanning IHMSA firing lines, I regretted selling my TDE .44 Auto Mag with 6-1/2” barrel. Auto Mags in silhouette did not jam because competitors took the expedient of single-loading from lockback. It would not have occurred to me to SINGLE LOAD the Auto Mag, nut that had become silhouette practice. At the IHMSA delegates meeting in 1978, a huge argument rose as a majority of the several hundred gathered voted to amend the Production rule from “no visible modifications” to NO MODIFICATIONS----othet than a trigger tune with factory parts only, paint on the sights, and the use of aftermarket stocks finished to a standard pattern (i.e., Pachmayr, etc).
Also, a repeating Production gun had to be loaded and fired as a repeater. The Auto Mag fazed out fast.
I don’t know the manufacturing story of the Auto Mag. In working with my lone example I encountered some soft parts, while other parts seemed properly hard & tough. The early Auto Mag used a cam called an "accelerator.” Struck me as a high-stress component which should be unnecessary if bolt timing was fully worked out.
Jerry Moran says the new Auto Mag should prove more developed and robust than the original. Stovepiping sounds likes there needs to be better control on extraction or the ejector spring is too weak or too strong, or in the wrong place on the bolt face.
John Powers of Holly, Michigan designed and built his own .44 Mag auto, the Magmatic, which resembles a Colt Woodsman on steroids. According to Powers, Israeli Military Industries offered him $25,000 for one of his pistols, but was unwilling to hire him or pay a royalty. When Powers declined, IMI bought a design from another Michigan machinist, and manufactured it as the Desert Eagle. Racy lines of the Auto Mag impart a futuristic look. Both Auto Mag and John Powers’ .44 Magmatic have a slimmer grip than the Desert Eagle brick.
My standard load for the .44 Auto Mag seated the Sierra 240 JHC over H110 (or 296) charged to base of bullet. Made all my brass from GI Twin Cities .308. Commercial brass may hold more H110/296, which I’d charge to base. My best reliability was shooting 20 below-ZERO. Still, it was rare to feed a full magazine. Your data well-developed and appreciated... except with Sierra 180 JHC, which appears light. The 180 has weak “hold back” for uniform ignition. as indicated by wide Extreme Spread.
David Bradshaw
|
|
|
|
Post by pbcaster45 on May 16, 2022 16:56:25 GMT -5
Dave, thanks for the all the information! I took the gun down and applied more oil to the locking lugs and bolt assembly - could tell the gun was unlocking with less effort! Hopefully that will take care of the stovepipes.
|
|
|
|
Post by bradshaw on May 17, 2022 8:22:48 GMT -5
Dave, thanks for the all the information! I took the gun down and applied more oil to the locking lugs and bolt assembly - could tell the gun was unlocking with less effort! Hopefully that will take care of the stovepipes. ***** Keep us tuned in to your shooting results. As the .44 Magmatic of John Powers is more compact, including grip, than either the Auto Mag or Desert Eagle, yet never reached production, it would be good to see a durable, reliable incarnation of the Auto Mag. Jerry Moran thinks some fail points on the original have been worked out. I’ve never seen a head-to-head Auto Mag vs Desert Eagle. From what I’ve heard the Desert Eagle holds up. I never shot the Desert Eagle for accuracy; it was on the scene in time to compete in IHMSA silhouette. I don’t recall seeing a Desert Eagle in competition. The Firing Line acts as truth serum on revolvers and autos. Accuracy of the Auto Mag was proven on silhouettes before the IHMSA sanctioned matches. Aside from it blocky mass, my chief demerits against the Desert Eagle are: * Dull trigger. * Violent, scattered ejection. Protective eyewear a must. * Gas port at front of chamber. Excessive velocity bleed for closed breech. As you sense, a stainless steel self-loading mechanism demands lubrication. David Bradshaw |
|
|
|
Post by lockhart on May 17, 2022 11:57:52 GMT -5
I had a High Standard marked Auto Mag back in '74* I killed 12 white tail deer with mine, before I sold it* Mine was
made by TDE, the company that got all the parts when Harry Sanford went broke* And, like David said, it was GREAT if
I could get 5 rounds to fire, consecutively, without a jam* Do I wish I still had it? Of course I do, but I would not pay the price of the new production ones* Fool me once, shame on you! Fool me TWICE, shame on me!
|
|
|
|
Post by pbcaster45 on May 18, 2022 20:41:33 GMT -5
I shot ten test rounds thru the gun tonight and it functioned 100%. You live and learn! Lube, lube, lube!
|
|
|
|
Post by bigbrowndog on May 18, 2022 21:00:46 GMT -5
What I noticed was that at the high pressures produced by the round and needed to operate the gun reliably it seemed to either evaporate, blow out, or just move lube out of the gun. Since I was hunting with it, just getting a couple of rounds to run was all I required except during sight in range sessions. Since I was familiar with rotating bolt rifles that operate at very similar pressures it was easy for me to know where lubrication was needed. As David mentioned about the locking lugs, I lubed both the the lugs and the lug recesses in the barrel. The long action springs received lube, as did frame rails, the action rods that ran inside the springs, pretty much every thing that moved or had a moving part ride upon it. Lee also recommended chamfering the bottom of the slide where it rides over the hammer to lessen the abruptness and ease the transition of cocking the hammer. I used a combination of moly grease and ATF mixed half and half into a slurry, experience had shown that method to allow the lube to stay put more so than simply oiling stuff and then have it run off and out of where you put it.
Trapr
|
|
|
|
Post by pbcaster45 on May 22, 2022 16:26:55 GMT -5
Starting to shoot for groups now and doing further testing with the Sierra 180 grain JHC. Five shots at twenty yards with the SBR Factory load.  Chronograph results with the Sierra bullet. Hefty recoil and muzzle blast with both loads. No stovepipes - 100% function. Bullet: Sierra 180 gr. JHC Powder: Winchester 296 29.1 grs. Primer: Winchester Large Pistol Case: Starline OAL: 1.608 Average Velocity: 1700 fps ES: 24 SD: 9 Bullet: Sierra 180 gr. JHC Powder: Winchester 296 30.1 grs. Primer: Winchester Large Pistol Case: Starline OAL: 1.610 Average Velocity: 1766 fps ES: 27 SD: 9 Group with the 30.1 grain load - blew one!  Fired primers looks exactly like those in the factory rounds.  |
|
|
|
Post by bigbrowndog on May 22, 2022 19:36:58 GMT -5
Looks good, except 180’s at that velocity are probably not going to do well on medium game. The 200’s I used at 1600+, did not provide good penetration on the game I shot with them. If I was hunting with it I’d probably start and end with 240’s, and just use premium 240’s for larger game, maybe try 270 or 280’s. Accuracy looks promising though.
Trapr
|
|
|
|
Post by pbcaster45 on May 24, 2022 21:31:34 GMT -5
When I first started testing my 44 AMP I was stumped that the SBR Factory load gave me so many stovepipes - so I broke down a couple. I'd read post by others who had broken down the factory load and it averaged 23.4 - 23.6 grains of H110/W296. The lot I am using (LOT #180715) was charged with 22.7 grains. It looks like the load was reduced at some time. I made up some test rounds using 23.4 grains of 296 and I think I've found a combo my gun really likes! No malfunctions! Five shots offhand at 30 feet.  Bullet: Hornady 240 gr. XTP-HP Powder: Winchester 296 23.4 grs. Primer: Winchester Large Pistol Case: Starline OAL: 1.600 I had a fall while moving furniture earlier in the week so I'm taking a break from shooting my Auto Mag (sore wrists)... really feeling my 65 years. Will get the velocity checked at a later time too. |
|
|
|
Post by sixshot on May 25, 2022 1:11:30 GMT -5
Elgin had a lot of Auto Mags & he used that odd position of his to shoot them. He would draw both legs up tight, wrap his left arm around both legs & have the gun very close to his face. At night after we had been printing the "Silhouette" paper in Preston, Idaho he would have those Auto Mags scattered all over his bed, maybe 5-6 of them, maybe more, parts everywhere.
In all the time I knew him I never ask to shoot one, just never cared for them I guess. But he could shoot them.
Dick
|
|
|
|
Post by pbcaster45 on Jun 5, 2022 16:44:20 GMT -5
I am really starting to like this gun! The grips are really comfortable, and I've come to realize the shooting glove I was using before was not necessary. Two five shot groups at 30 feet with my favorite load.  |
|
|
|
Post by pbcaster45 on Jun 11, 2022 17:15:44 GMT -5
Two more loads checked with the chronograph today. The CCI-350s I used before with the Hornady 200 XTP-HP must be a lot hotter than Winchester Large Pistol Primers. I got a lot more velocity with a lower charge when using CCI-350s.
Bullet: Hornady 200 gr. XTP-HP
Powder: Winchester 296 26.0 grs.
Primer: CCI-350
Case: Starline
OAL: 1.600
Average Velocity: 1723 fps
ES: 40
SD: 16
Bullet: Hornady 200 gr. XTP-HP
Powder: Winchester 296 27.0 grs.
Primer: Winchester Large Pistol
Case: Starline
OAL: 1.598
Average Velocity: 1659 fps
ES: 29
SD: 11
Bullet: Hornady 240 gr. XTP-HP
Powder: Winchester 296 23.5 grs.
Primer: Winchester Large Pistol
Case: Starline
OAL: 1.596
Average Velocity: 1506 fps
ES: 29
SD: 10
Comments: Factory Duplication Load
|
|
|
|
Post by bigbrowndog on Jun 11, 2022 17:58:51 GMT -5
Magnum primers are typically recommended when using a ball powder, I don’t use anything less than CCI 350’s in my Large primed magnum rounds.
Trapr
|
|
