cdf41
.30 Stingray
Posts: 474
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Post by cdf41 on Apr 8, 2022 16:59:03 GMT -5
I really like that case colored one! Have been thinking about getting another "plastic" 9mm, but may just have to search out a Uberti sa or a double action 38/357. Nothing fancy just a good working SA or DA.
Keep us posted Huey!
Thanks for all the great pics JT!
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Post by Encore64 on Apr 8, 2022 17:25:36 GMT -5
This idea actually started with a Uberti 38 Special Revolver.
Years ago I bought the Uberti Stallion. The Flattop Target 5.5" with adjustable sights.
It's built on the S6 Sized Frame and deadly accurate.
I've been researching enhanced loads for it. Power Pistol produces excellent velocity within pressure limits.
It'll push the 145 grn GT HP Bullets to 1000 fps. Not what you'd expect from a 38 Special.
Like an idiot, I passed on a second one and regret it to this day...
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Post by Lee Martin on Apr 8, 2022 17:30:21 GMT -5
Years ago I bought the Uberti Stallion. The Flattop Target 5.5" with adjustable sights. Every day I check the auction sites for a Uberti Stallion Target .38. I've wanted one for years and always miss out when they become available. The search will continue though. Hopefully in time I'll land one. -Lee www.singleactions.com"Chasing perfection five shots at a time" |
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Post by Encore64 on Apr 10, 2022 14:06:53 GMT -5
Got to thinking about Reloading Dies. Decided a good idea to order a set of Lee 38 Short/Long Colt Dies for this project.
Loading those shorter cartridges can be a real pain without the right Expander and Crimp Dies.
I really prefer the Lee Pistol Dies over the rest. Their Powder Thru Dies are really a step saver.
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Post by reflex264 on Apr 11, 2022 8:05:28 GMT -5
Mr. Taffin those are some awesome pieces. Of course you know that.
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Post by Encore64 on May 26, 2022 13:11:48 GMT -5
Clements told me yesterday that he'd started this gun. No set date on completion, but it's closer every day.
Have to admit to being a little worked up about this build and the 45 Schofield. Guess just because they're off the beaten path...
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Post by squawberryman on May 26, 2022 14:18:46 GMT -5
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Post by Encore64 on Aug 9, 2022 15:29:51 GMT -5
Spoke to Clements this afternoon. Seems this gun is close to being finished. Waiting on a Power Custom Freespin Pawl and bluing.
He found one really strange thing about this base gun. For some reason, the cylinder window was cut longer than others. The factory cylinder had a longer gas ring and the barrel was set back to compensate. He had to turn a longer cylinder instead of using his standard dimensions.
Suited me just fine. Will be a bit more forgiving on bullet choices...
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Post by needsmostuff on Aug 10, 2022 9:37:48 GMT -5
IIRC, COLT CLAIMED ITS OFFICIAL POILICE REVOLVERS WERE RATED FOR 38/44 LOADS. I OWN SEVERAL OF THEM BUT I HAVE NO PLANS ON USING 38/44 AMMO IN THEM. I have always been curious as to what the upper end of steady but nondestructive use ammo would be. I have also heard they are good for 38-44. They (both OP and 38 Trooper appear close to N Frame for toughness. |
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Post by Encore64 on Aug 10, 2022 17:30:46 GMT -5
I exhausted my research on the 38-44 today. For 16 years I've printed or copied every article and data I could find on the cartridge and guns so chambered.
Printed a cover sheet for a 3-Ring Binder that is packed full of information.
Wasn't as easy on this one as I expected. But, information is out there.
Dave tells me COAL will be at 1.525" and that covers 95% of the data I've collected.
Just waiting on the gun and the fun will begin...
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Post by rjm52 on Aug 11, 2022 5:47:59 GMT -5
Glad your project is still going along well...
Had very little interest in the .38-44 as I just shot so much .41 Magnum when I shot N-Frame guns... Then a few years ago happened upon a great deal on a 1952 (birth year) S&W Heavy Duty and bought it...since then have made up several loads mostyly with Unique as in the old Lyman manuals. Velocity with the Lyman/Thompson 357156 has been in the mid-1100s and shells drop right out of the chambers...zero pressure signs... Have shot the loads in a 649, 67, and Colt Diamonback and there has been no issues... Since there are J-Frames built in 9mm that run over 30K psi why would one worry about about a 25K psi .38 Special...
Posted the following over on the Cast Boolit Forums:
Was looking at a 1948 SHOOTERS BIBLE last night. In the factory cartridge section it has listed the loads that were available in .38-44.
Remington and Peters:
158 grain Lead
158 grain Metal Piercing
110 grain "SPL" (Highway Patrol Metal Piercing)
Winchester:
158 grain Lead
158 grain Metal Piercing
150 grain Metal Piercing
Western:
150 grain Lubaloy Coated
150 grain Metal Piercing
200 grain Lubaloy Coated
In the Factory Ballistics section they list all the Remington and Peters 158 grain loads (Lead and MP) at 1115 fps.
Western 150 grain (MP and Lead) at 1175 fps
Winchester 150 MP at 1175 and the 158 Lead 1115
All were listed from a 5" barrel. It also states that the .38-44 loads were now DISCONTINUED probably because the .357 was introduced.
...a shame that the other Highway Patrol loads were not listed...would have been interesting.
Found a S&W Factory brochure probably from just before the .357 was introduced, as it was not listed as a factory round. The listed velocity of the 158 grain .38-44 was 1125 fps, 444 ft. pounds of energy and penetrated 12 7/8" pine boards spaced 7/8" apart. It did not list a barrel length. By comparison the .38 Special 158 grain bullet was 847 fps with 252 ft. pounds of energy and penetrated 8.5 boards. The .44 Special 246 grain bullet was 767 fps and 323 ft. pounds and penetrated 7.5 boards...
These velocities correspond with the loads in the old Lyman Reloading Manual I have. The Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman and LSWC-HP loads are just a little faster than these old factory 158s and the same as the 150s.
From the BB Website:
Item 20A: 158gr., very soft cast, semi wad cutter, (Keith) hollow cavity, with a gas check. This bullet will mushroom violently on impact and will penetrate roughly 14 inches in human flesh. Again, this bullet is gas checked and will not lead your barrel.
➤ 1,040 fps (379 ft. lbs.) -- S&W mod. 60, 2-inch
➤ 1,059 fps (393 ft. lbs.) -- S&W mod. 66, 2.5-inch
➤ 1,143 fps (458 ft. lbs.) -- Ruger SP101, 3-inch
➤ 1,162 fps (474 ft. lbs.) -- S&W Mt. Gun, 4-inch
ITEM 20H
PRESS RELEASE FOR BUFFALO BORE 38 SPL +P 158gr. HARD CAST OUTDOORSMAN
This load was designed for those who need a deep penetrating 357 mag. or 38 SPL load to be fired from lightweight alloy 357’s and any 38 SPL revolver. Lightweight alloy 357’s develop multiple problems when firing our 180gr. 357 mag. hard cast turbocharged (Item 19A) ammo or any make of full power 357 ammo. Yet many folks want a deep penetrating “outdoor” type of load for their lightweight pocket 357’s, so here it is. Whether you are shooting gators or bears in the head, this load utilizes a hard flat nosed bullet, at sufficient velocity, even from 2-inch barrels, to fully penetrate either.
This load is safe to shoot in all 38SPL and 357 magnum firearms of modern design that are in normal operating condition. In the super lightweight alloy revolvers (around 11-12 oz.) the bullet will not jump crimp under recoil provided you do not subject an unfired round to more than 5 or 6 firings. In all steel guns, even short barreled ones, crimp jump is not an issue as all steel snub-nosed revolvers are much heavier than the alloy versions.
This load utilizes a flash retardant powder that will not blind the shooter in low light conditions, which is important as wildlife and criminals get much more active when darkness comes.
This bullet is hard cast and properly lubed and as such will not substantially lead your barrel. You should find no degradation of accuracy when firing many cylinders full of this ammo without cleaning.
We never use extra long laboratory barrels to produce our advertised velocities, which we feel is dishonest to the customer as those extra long barrels produce extra high velocities, which you cannot duplicate with stock revolvers in the real world. Instead, we use stock firearms and you can see the velocity results below.
➤ 1255 fps -- Ruger GP 100, 6 inch barrel, 357 mag.
➤ 1186 fps -- S&W Combat Masterpiece 6 inch barrel, 38 SPL (circa 1958)
➤ 1146 fps -- S&W Mt. Gun, 4-inch barrel, 357 Mag.
➤ 1167 fps -- S&W Mod. 15, 4 inch barrel, 38 SPL (circa 1968)
➤ 1112 fps -- Ruger SP 101, 3 inch barrel, 38 SPL
➤ 1043 fps -- S&W Mod 66, 2.5 inch barrel, 357 mag.
➤ 989 fps -- S&W Mod 340PD, 1 & 7/8 inch barrel, 357 mag.
➤ 1027 fps -- S&W Mod 642 (pre-dash), 1 & 7/8 inch barrel, 38 SPL
Went and found the two old Lyman manuals I have...
The earlier one is missing the cover which had the Edition and Copyright date. It is after 1935 however as the .357 Magnum is listed. The handgun loads have both jacketed and cast bullets listed.
The later one is #43 and dated 1964...just a couple of years before I started reloading... It has cast bullets only.
Earlier Manual: .38 Special High Velocity
148 Grain Cast Hollow Base #358395
Unique 7.7 grains: 1285 fps
2400 13.5 grains : 1380
150 grain 358156 Thompson H.P. Gas Check
Unique 6.4 grains: 1154 fps
2400 13.5 grains: 1227 fps
155 grain Keith Hollow Point and Hollow Base #358439
2400 12.0 grains: 1230 fps
158 grain Thompson Cast Plain Base #358156 (I think that this is a typo as on the previous page of standard .38 Special loads it says Gas Check)
2400 11.8 grains: 1210
No barrel length is listed...
Manual #43 (for most of the same bullets as in the earlier manual)
148 grain HB-WC #335395
Unique: 3.5 grains/720 6.4 grains/1155
2400: 9.0 grains/940 13.5 grains/1380
150 grain L/T GC HP #358156
Unique: 5.0 grains/880 6.8 grains/1100
2400: 9.5 grains/925 13.0/1310
158 grain L/T GC #358156 or #358311 (RN PB)
Unique: 5.0 grains/850 6.0 grains/1060
2400: 9.5 grains/915 12.5 grains/1240
165 grain Keith solid #358429
Unique: 5.0 grains/810 6.0 grains/1010
2400: 9.5 grains/875 10.5 grains/1025
I use the 6.0 grains of Unique load with the Lyman/Thompson GC in both solid and HP. I have not chronoed the 6.0 but my first batch was 5.8 and got the following with the solid bullet.
S&W 649-1 2": 996 fps
S&W 60-10 3": 1044 fps
S&W Heavy Duty 4": 1114 fps
S&W Pre-27 6": 1121 fps
I'm expecting 15-25 fps more on average from the extra 2/10s of a grain..that should put it just above where the original factory loadings were and a little less than the Buffalo Bore.
As to these loads in the little 649 J-frame...it has a second cylinder for .38 Super and 9mm via moon clips. If it will handle 35k psi loads from those cartridges there isn't much to worry about with maybe 25k psi from a .38 Special +P+ that is probably 10K psi less in pressure. Ejection was smooth and primers round...
Start low and work up using a chronograph...
Took a Heavy Duty and a 649-2 to the range the other day. Don't know why but this batch of 6.0 grains of Unique with the 357156 bullets were going a little slower than my last batch...
Just found some 2400 and do have Longshot that I'm going to try... AAC7 or 9 may get a try also...
Interesting in looking at a 1952 GUN DIGEST under the Colt firearms section, it lists the .38-44 rounds as acceptable for use in the D frame Detective Special and Police Positive Special. Just looked at the 1968 SHOOTER'S BIBLE and under the Colt D frame section the steel frame Detective Special is still listed as being able to use "High Speed" ammo but the aluminum frame Agent and Cobra "mid-range and regular service loads" only....
There are also four factory loads listed in the 1952 catalog:
Winchester 158 Lead and Metal Piercing at 1175 from a 5"
Remington 158 Lead at 1115 and Hi-Way Master Metal Piercing 110 grain at 1330...out of a 5"
In the 1968 only two loadings:
Winchester: 150 grain Metal piercing @ 1080/6"
Remington: 158 grain Lead @ 1080/6"
CWlongshot made some of the 140 grain Lyman Spire Point (35893) bullets probably originally made to defeat body armor... As I have a few pounds of SR4756 left I'm just going to expend it where it does the most good...HiSpeed .38 Special rounds...
Ran them in two guns...a 1968 Colt Diamondback 2.5" and a S&W Heavy Duty 4"
8.0 grains/1154/1230
8.5 grains/1153/1255
9.0 grains/1192/1307
9.5 grains/1247/1337
With the 8.0 and 8.5 grain loads the cases dropped out of the chambers when inverted. Round primers, zero pressure signs.
With 9.0 grains it was odd...smooth effortless ejection. Round primers on the DB and slight primer firing pin cratering on the HD...and here where it gets real odd...at 9.5 round primers on both guns and zero cratering...just normal firing pin
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Post by Encore64 on Aug 11, 2022 5:57:57 GMT -5
Thanks for posting all this excellent information.
Most of the data I've found leads back to 2400 Powder at 25k PSI pushes a cast 158 grn at 1125 fps from a 4" and 1200 +/- fps from a 6.5".
Many of the newer powders push a 158 grn at 1050 +/- fps at 20k or less.
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Post by rjm52 on Aug 11, 2022 20:18:52 GMT -5
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Post by Encore64 on Aug 12, 2022 16:51:37 GMT -5
It's almost entertaining to read some of that stuff. For 90+ years 2400 has been "THE" powder for the 38-44. Now, it isn't a good choice?
Probably true of 17k 38 Special Loads, but...
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Post by bigbore5 on Aug 12, 2022 21:29:49 GMT -5
It's almost entertaining to read some of that stuff. For 90+ years 2400 has been "THE" powder for the 38-44. Now, it isn't a good choice? Probably true of 17k 38 Special Loads, but... Nobody says what's been working doesn't still work. But nobody says what was best will remain best. It's just what was best at that time. |
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