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Post by tdbarton on Nov 27, 2021 22:58:54 GMT -5
Personal preferences aside, do you feel that a lever, pump, or auto loader could be considered a ‘rook rifle’? i think any platform would work just fine for me i want something light thats why the single shot rifle. i dont think there is any set rules for the rook/small game rifle. i have always thought the 357 max would make a good one max for deer and down load for small game. Light weight and well-balanced would be key for me as well. And that’s kind of how I ended up posing the question in the first place. This thread had me looking at Henry single shots and noted that they were the same weight as their steel-framed lever guns. But like I said…at a certain point it comes down to personal preference and semantics. |
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Post by Encore64 on Nov 27, 2021 23:04:55 GMT -5
It absolutely is a personal preference.
I've always thought the 360 Dan Wesson would be a good one. The 357 Maximum is awesome in a Carbine.
A very underestimated TC Contender Barrel Chambering is the 357 Sig. Got to test out an 18" Carbine and velocity was 1700+ fps. The bottleneck really makes a difference!!!
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jeffh
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,749
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Post by jeffh on Nov 27, 2021 23:28:36 GMT -5
Personal preferences aside, do you feel that a lever, pump, or auto loader could be considered a ‘rook rifle’? i think any platform would work just fine for me i want something light thats why the single shot rifle. i dont think there is any set rules for the rook/small game rifle. i have always thought the 357 max would make a good one max for deer and down load for small game. I cheated.
When I ordered my 357 Mag barrel for my "rook rifle," I ordered a 357 Max also. It hasn't even been fired yet.
Just looking at the case for its form and volume, the 'Max has a lot of merit as a well mannered small game, vermin, varmint rifle with enough capacity for a more than adequate deer rifle, extending the range beyond the 357 Mag by a fair bit.
Given the smaller charges of fast pistol powder that I use 99% of the time, the 38 Special case would suffice, but the latitude afforded by the larger cases is convenient.
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Post by bcelliott on Nov 27, 2021 23:45:08 GMT -5
A while back, I emailed Henry about chambering their single-shot rifle in .327 Federal with no response. What I'm after is a rifle that can either launch a 100+ grain bullet at north of 2100 fps for medium/large game up to deer, as well as shoot round balls/flat nose bullets at 600 fps with little noise for practice and quiet hunting if times get hard.
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jeffh
.375 Atomic
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Post by jeffh on Nov 27, 2021 23:46:21 GMT -5
Light weight and well-balanced would be key for me as well........... This is where the Handi-Rifle fell off the list for me. I prefer their ejectors (before they changed them to extractors) and the location and operation of the barrel release lever over the Contender, but the barrels got heavier and the more slender older ones were harder and harder to find. The last 357 Max (rechambered Mag) and 30/30 were really pretty beefy guns with 22" barrels. With scopes they felt like 8#.
The 357 TC I'm shooting is a 5#, 13 oz. with the scope (Japanese Weaver V3 Classic 1-3x20mm) and a 18" BULL barrel at that. It sure doesn't feel like that much, as it is very slender, compact, quick and naturally handling little setup. If the barrel were tapered, it would be butt-heavy, which I can't tolerate.
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ericp
.327 Meteor
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Post by ericp on Nov 28, 2021 7:25:44 GMT -5
To my way of thinking a rook rifle should be light enough you always grab it on your way out the door and nearly forget it's in your hand until needed, like a good 28ga double. For me that means 6lbs or less. That rules out the Handi rifles and other beefy singleshot actions which are readily available. A small frame rolling block would be interesting but for no really good reason I'm set on a Martini Cadet. I have, and very much enjoy, a Contender in pistol form but the nearly vertical pistol grip in a rifle stock is something I just don't get along with.
There are some old small frame repeaters in centerfire cartridges of this class like the Marlin 27S and Remington 25 that carry quite nicely but I really enjoy singleshots and they are in keeping with the original spirit of the British rook rifles.
Eric
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Post by Encore64 on Nov 28, 2021 7:53:55 GMT -5
I was shooting for 6# more or less myself. I was a little concerned about this when I ordered the 30 Reece.
With the smaller bore, a barrel is bound to weigh more.
That's one reason I added the Six 1-8" helical flutes. It not only reduces weight, but they balance better than a tapered barrel since the weight is more consistent from end to end.
You guys are sure on track for some interesting guns and hopefully interesting threads.
NOTE: Jeff's picture brings up a good point that hasn't been discussed yet. We have an advantage that they didn't have 120-140 years ago - RYNITE...
While I love beautiful wood, it has disadvantages. Rynite is strong and lightweight. You can simply build a sturdier rifle without adding weight by using the composite stock and forearm.
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Post by needsmostuff on Nov 28, 2021 10:21:18 GMT -5
No real design to relate, just a concept.
Several years ago, I was following several threads where guys were making very affordable pistol cartridge Handi type rifles from the common (at that time) breakopen shotguns.
They sawed off the barrel just past the pivot lug and turned a take off rifled rifle barrel to fit into the stub.
Of course, lots of self-innovation as to attaching and headspacing the barrel in the stub, reworking the extractor, rechambering and designing sights. But they were making it work.
Now the iffy part. Common Sense required
They were aware and used common sense around it being a shotgun receiver not made for those pressures the cartridges were capable of.
Just food for thought on a buget mild mannered Rook.
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Post by tdbarton on Nov 28, 2021 10:23:43 GMT -5
To my way of thinking a rook rifle should be light enough you always grab it on your way out the door and nearly forget it's in your hand until needed, like a good 28ga double. For me that means 6lbs or less. Eric Good way of putting it. And puts a damper on the Henry steel lever guns, tipping the scales just shy of 7lbs. |
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Post by medicdave on Nov 28, 2021 10:53:56 GMT -5
The contender is a great "contender" for the perfect rook rifle. The one I took a deer with this year was wearing a factory full bull 7/30 waters barrel cut back to 20 inches from the factory 23, Stratton custom steel base, VX-2 2-7x33 scope, and rynite stocks, and came in just under 6lbs. It balances between the hands with just enough weight forward to hang steady offhand. Bonus that the carbine and my single seven I was carrying weigh less combined than my model 70 30/06.
Planning to add a 327 federal barrel, also at 20", as I've had very good luck loading the 327 from mild to wild in the single seven bisley. I've been using the 120gr rim rock Keith bullet from around 900-1400 and it just plain shoots. With a bit of fiddling I've gotten the powder puff to same point of impact at 25yd as the hot stuff. As for the .311 bore while there's not the plethora of bullets that there is in the .308 diameter, there are 120ish grain jacketed bullets made for the 7.62x39 that would be interesting to try to give the 327 a better pill for close range deer. Will need to try them out and see if they can be pushed fast enough to expand on lung shots. If not I dont see one walking away from one placed at the butt of the ear with traditional 32 pistol bullets.
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jeffh
.375 Atomic
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Post by jeffh on Nov 28, 2021 11:11:45 GMT -5
I was shooting for 6# more or less myself. I was a little concerned about this when I ordered the 30 Reece. With the smaller bore, a barrel is bound to weigh more............... I believe my 24" bull-barreled 30/30 to be just a fuzz over 6# with a "vintage" Redfield 2-7x38, same Rynite stock set. I'm thinking you should be very close to right on 6#.
I have this strange habit of weighing things and recording the values. It's just a unit of measure which I am interested in when considering anything, especially when it comes to firearms. I've always preferred very light stuff in that area. I only have a 3# scale, but since Contenders can be taken apart,.... Maybe this info will help?:
Plastic "G2" fore end (long, parallel-sided one): 8 oz. Plastic Contender (original) butt stock: 13.1 oz. Contender action, w/pin (specifically the chromed one, if it matters): 19.2 oz. 20" MGM 357 Mag barrel, CS, bull, w/aluminum Weaver base: 2#, 10 oz.* Weaver (Japanese) V3 Classic, 1-3x20mm scope, w/low Weaver rings: 10.7 oz.
* I have yet to measure the 24" 30/30 barrel, or the 20" 357 Max barrel.
The gun I showed above balances on one finger RIGHT in front of the trigger guard, so it does tend to want to tip backwards when carried cupped in one hand, but not a lot. Placing one's pinky in the trigger guard balances the gun perfectly when carrying cupped in one hand, but I don't like having a finger in the trigger guard at all, let alone on an original Contender, as it is SO easy to trip the "set" and never know it. Heresy, I know, but I'd honestly prefer the G2 specifically for the trigger.
The 24" 30/30 IS heavier than the 357, by about a pound, but it is slightly muzzle-heavy, which makes it exceptionally nice to handle and shoot. It is far easier to shoot WELL with this one than the lighter 357, but either is capable of marvelous intrinsic accuracy, which leaves the burden solely on the shoulders of the shooter. HOWEVER, in spite of small, light rifles being more difficult to shoot WELL off the bench, they are far more capable of making one smile shooting off-hand or using field positions.
I have not had a chance to mount the 20" 357 Max barrel, which may be more like the 22" fluted barrel, but I will if I can find a few quiet moments.
On a side note, related to the topic of how guns in this (loose) classification handle, I had planned to fire up the soldering iron and stipple a fore-end over this holiday weekend. The Rynite stocks are just about as slick as an uncheckered piece of walnut. While I like the feel of a full wrap of texture on fore-ends, I may leave the bottom smooth for the sake of bench-testing, but if we're going to make things harder on ourselves (to shoot short, light guns well), we may just not tip-toe into it - in for a penny, in for a pound.
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jeffh
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Post by jeffh on Nov 28, 2021 11:18:44 GMT -5
No real design to relate, just a concept. Several years ago, I was following several threads where guys were making very affordable pistol cartridge Handi type rifles from the common (at that time) breakopen shotguns. They sawed off the barrel just past the pivot lug and turned a take off rifled rifle barrel to fit into the stub. Of course, lots of self-innovation as to attaching and headspacing the barrel in the stub, reworking the extractor, rechambering and designing sights. But they were making it work. Now the iffy part. Common Sense requiredThey were aware and used common sense around it being a shotgun receiver not made for those pressures the cartridges were capable of. Just food for thought on a buget mild mannered Rook. That was a fun crowd, and those with the tooling did some really neat stuff, mainly chambering them for milder-mannered cartridges which fit the context of the concept under discussion here. One of those fine gents corrected a too-shallow rim cut on one of my 357s, which would not close on any 357 rim I owned, which is a pretty diverse collection. "Larry" something, in Oregon?
"Barrel-stubbing," I think they called it when they cut one off and attached a new blank inside the part of the barrel they left attached to the lug.
Those guns were also easy to convert to ejector, using fairly common tools. I don't have a lathe, but a decent drill press came in handy for a few different modifications.
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Post by tdbarton on Nov 28, 2021 11:41:06 GMT -5
Huey’s incoming barrel. Same design but blued:  |
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Post by Encore64 on Nov 28, 2021 11:44:01 GMT -5
JeffH Said....
"I believe my 24" bull-barreled 30/30 to be just a fuzz over 6# with a "vintage" Redfield 2-7x38, same Rynite stock set. I'm thinking you should be very close to right on 6#."
Sounds like what I'm seeing. Have a 24" 264 LBC G2 that weighs 6#. The 30 Reece will be a bull barrel, but 1" Shorter, Bigger Bore and Heavily Fluted. I think the end product will be similar if not slightly under.
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Post by Encore64 on Nov 28, 2021 11:48:16 GMT -5
Huey’s incoming barrel. Same design but blued:  Thanks Tim... You can see how deep they cut the fluting. I'm hoping this cuts the weight down to Jeff's 357 Mag Level. Will know after it's done!!! The Helical Fluting is probably a "Love It" or "Hate It" thing. I believe it adds a cool factor that actually adds value to the project by cutting weight... |
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