So, is a "Rook Rifle" still viable?...

[Encore64]

We just want to keep it positive. Hopefully, others will expand their gun battery to include a few guns like this.

It doesn't matter if it's a $200 Handi-Rifle or a $20k Custom Falling Block. Everyone can find something in their price range to participate.

It's always the shooter's mentality that matters. Doubt any hungry family eating a meal would question the value of the rifle that fed them. The value of gun when you need it has nothing to do with it's cost.

[scotth]

Nov 26, 2021 17:20:49 GMT -5 Encore64 said:

The 30 Badger makes good sense. I doubt there's enough difference between it and the 30 Reece to matter.

I just already owned 30 Reece dies and the 12" TC Contender so chambered.

As previously posted, the 32 Magnum, 327 Fed and 32-20 WCF are all great candidates.

Hopefully, we'll hear from Scott on his 327 Fed 1-10" Contender Carbine soon. It should be a winner for sure.

I am still waiting on scope rings to come in the mail then find some time to get on the reloading bench. still deer hunting in any free time i can find. but reading post like this keeps me dreaming about this project. i am chopping at the bit to get on it.

i really like the idea of the 30 reece/badger cant wait to start reading some range reports.

[jeffh]

So much for philosophy and ideology,....

Not making recommendations, but sharing a few examples of neat things which came of my limited exploits.  My plan started with a 223 (seriously), thinking that I could load it the way I needed using cast, but with the potential to load full-power jacketed loads necessary.  Over thirty years ago, I was offered a compete set of tooling to turn 22 LR cases into jacketed .224" bullets and had to pass on the horrendous cost of $300 out the door.  Then, the 222, 357, 7.62x39, 357, 44 Mag/Special, 32 Mag, 357 again, 30/30, 300 BLK, 30/30 again, 222 again, 357 - and the 357 just kept coming back up, but there is SO much potential for any of the others too. In other words, I was all over the map.  Platforms were Ruger No. 3, CZ 527, Zastava "Mini-Mauser," Rossi 92 lever, H&R Handi-Rifle, TC Contender Carbine.  The TC stuck, but the Handi was just super too.  The Ruger 77/357 was an experience I'd just as soon forget.

Lee C309-13-RF, with the gas check shank removed from the mould with a chucking reamer.  As-cast LEFT, sized RIGHT.

These fall out of the mould at .313"+ and have been used in the 7.62x39, 300 BLK and 30/30 over small charges of "fast" pistol powder.

LEE TL-358-158-SWC, 50/50 wheel-weights/pure lead, after connecting with a steel target at 25 yards, started at 450 - 500 fps.  "SNAP,.........PLINK!"  VERY quiet and very effective, and darned cheap to shoot.

What I consider one of the best ones in my experimentation is the H&R/AAC, 300 BLK.  As a 300 BLK, it fit this concept extremely well, but missed the mark as a legal deer round in Ohio, so had it rebored to 357, which was a disaster.  Remington's gun smith actually INSISTED on replacing the barrel under warranty and did.  My best friends son has it now, but I should have kept it and tried again. As a 300 BLK, it made a dandy 32-20 or 327 surrogate, for which no one would hold brass over my head - I'd just make more myself.

[Encore64]

CVA make their economical Scout Rifle in 300 Blackout. It's generally under $400 at my LGS.

In my mind, a Rook Cartridge should be rimmed. But, that's just me and absolutely not necessary.

No reason this little rifle would make a great cast bullet gun that could double as a deer rifle.

[jeffh]

I agree on the rim, even as some may see it as being subjective - I won't budge on that one for my own use.

I was able to mitigate the negative aspect of the rimless 300 BLK in the Handi, as it is capable of dropping the extractor out of the way and allowing the cartridge to "plunk" all the way into the chamber and then letting the extractor ride over the rim as you close the action. Further, I converted it to ejector, which is something I wish I could do to the Contenders. All of that was a long way 'round not having a rim, so I am happy with my eventual rimmed choice.

I did stray way out and away from the general concept you define, so anything I toss in is strictly for the sake of bits and pieces of ideas. I do not want to drag this off in the weeds, but also want to share anything that may help in any way.

The CVAs do look good - like hen's teeth when I was looking.

Rossi also made a darling little 410/357 break-action, which was smaller and lighter than the Handi.

Never put my hands on one of those Rossis either and gave up, spent the money and invested in the TCs. They seemed expensive at first, but man did I ever invest a LOT of time fussing and aggravation (especially the rebore job) trying to get where I wanted to be with a "budget" gun. The TCs and MGM barrels were perfect "out of the box" and all I've really had to do was some minor trigger work on two, adding washers to fore-end screws and re-drilling cheap Weaver aluminum bases so I got more than a thread and a half engagement.

I traded some money for a lot of time, fussing and uncertainty, and the platform has impressed me as being even more appropriate and versatile than I'd imagined. YOU already know that, and in following many of your posts in the past, I've gained enough insight to really appreciate the Contenders more than I did based on my own imagination and limited experience.

I suppose I never thanked you for that - so thank you.

[Encore64]

I like the TCs!!! When I heard TC was dropping the G2, I got my LGS to grab me some actions. Then added a couple more later when S&W produced them.

You can do just about with them. Rimfire or centerfire, rimmed or rimless, rifle or pistol, shotgun, etc.

They are the perfect platform for these cartridges too. Actions can be blue, stainless or case hardened.

There is just no limit to what can be done with them.

[jeffh]

Nov 27, 2021 13:38:55 GMT -5 Encore64 said:

..........Actions can be blue, stainless or case hardened...............

Or HARD-CHROMED!

Quite by accident, I ended up buying a "stainless" Contender, only to discover it wasn't.

Supposedly it was done by JD Jones, as it preceded the Armor Alloy production by a few years.

I ended up with one blued, one stainless and one satin-chromed.

Guess all I need a case-hardened one now.

[edk]

Nov 27, 2021 14:51:19 GMT -5 jeffh said:

Guess all I need a case-hardened one now.

Incredible thinking in 2021 that factory G2s that got Turnbull's process were a mere $75-100 over blued - and most of us thought that was a lot of money back in the day

[Encore64]

Both the 25-20 and 32-20 could be considered American Rook Cartridges. They are timeless and are still very effective today. I think a fast twist 32-20 with a .308" Bore is in my future. Time will tell...

But, after 30 years of reading Cartridges of the World, I was intrigued by the Rook Cartridges.

Particularly, those in 30 Caliber. Which, by the way, was about 50% of them.

The 300 Rook was among the most popular of the bunch. It had a case length of 1.17". Ballistics show it pushed an 80 grn .300" bullet along at 1100 fps for 215 fpe. This was accomplished with 10 grn of Black Powder.

All that's known about it's introduction was "Before 1874."

In 1901, Westley Richards lengthened the case to 1.54" for Cordite Powder and created the 300 Sherwood. AKA, the 300 Extra Long and 300 Westley Richards. An 8.5 grn charge pushed a 140 grn bullet to 1400 fps for 610 fpe. Bullet diameter was kept the same as the original @ .300".

The two cartridges I'm focused on are the 327 Federal and 30 Reece.

The 327 Federal (22" Carbine) pushed a 135 grn .311" bullet along at 1585 fps for 753 fpe. Powder charge is 9.5 grn of 2400. Case length is 1.20"...

The 30 Reece (12" TC Pistol) pushed a 135 grn .308" bullet along at 1460 fps for 648 fpe. Powder charge is 7.0 grn of Unique. Case length is 1.165"...

I find it highly likely that the 30 Reece will easily reach 1600 fps in the 23" barrel with the same load. This will produce 767 fpe.

I do believe the 30 Reece will produce less noise due to the smaller charge of faster burning powder. But, no amount of hypothesizing can take the place of testing.

Looking at the case lengths, powder charges, bullet weights, etc it's about as equal as we can get with modern cartridges.

I did read that many hunters thought the 300 Sherwood was too powerful for small game. So, they used it for deer, bear, etc. Testosterone levels were high in those days!!!

Shows how mentality has changed in 120 years...

[junebug]

I have a Spanish Destroyer carbine in 9 mm Largo that will stand in as my Rook Rifle. Not the smoothest gun I own but boy did it surprise me in the accuracy department . With the crude open sights and some Blaser factory ammo it will cut a ragged hole at 25 yds. Loads with standard 9mm dies.

[Encore64]

Those are neat little guns. Certainly good for small game hunting. I suppose there really isn't any difference in a "Small Game Rifle" and a "Rook Rifle."

Maybe a time period difference in cartridge designs.

My self imposed guidelines for my Rook Rifles Project are pretty basic. Clearly, others will set their own goals.

1) Has to be Rimmed...
2) Max Bore Size of .357" (36 Caliber)...
3) Has to be capable of at least 1400 fps...
4) Want at least 1,000 loads per pound of powder (7.0 grns or less)...
5) Available Cast, Coated and Jacketed Bullets...
6) Minimum Barrel Length 22" for noise reduction...
7) Has to be a Single Shot...

#4 Rules out the 327 Federal with 135 grn bullets. It's a go with 100-115 grn...

[jeffh]

sportsmansvintagepress.com/read-free/practical-rifle-shooting-table-contents/rook-rabbit-shooting/

The classic guns we think of as "Rook Rifles" were fun guns for exterminating excesses of large, crow-like birds as they sat in trees. Not sure what they use over there today, but I won't let a lack of rooks to shoot deter me in my enjoyment of something very similar, whether for small game, pests, varmints, predators and just fun.

Made short work of a big woodchuck recently with mine and he wasn't even sitting in a tree.

[tdbarton]

Nov 27, 2021 21:47:25 GMT -5 Encore64 said:

Those are neat little guns. Certainly good for small game hunting. I suppose there really isn't any difference in a "Small Game Rifle" and a "Rook Rifle."

Maybe a time period difference in cartridge designs.

My self imposed guidelines for my Rook Rifles Project are pretty basic. Clearly, others will set their own goals.

1) Has to be Rimmed...
2) Max Bore Size of .357" (36 Caliber)...
3) Has to be capable of at least 1400 fps...
4) Want at least 1,000 loads per pound of powder (7.0 grns or less)...
5) Available Cast, Coated and Jacketed Bullets...
6) Minimum Barrel Length 22" for noise reduction...
7) Has to be a Single Shot...

#4 Rules out the 327 Federal with 135 grn bullets. It's a go with 100-115 grn...

Personal preferences aside, do you feel that a lever, pump, or auto loader could be considered a ‘rook rifle’?

This is where a bit of semantics come into play, but I think it addresses the question originally posed in the thread title. Is the rook rifle still viable? If the current available selection of small-bore rifles is any indication, then yes.

But part of me feels a bit disingenuous referring to anything other than a single-shot as a rook rifle. I guess I’m basing that off of historical context - which I am by no means any type of expert. I’m curious on opinions. Because if a person could arguably do the same job more efficiently with, say, a lever gun in .357 stoked with .38s, then the answer might be ‘no’.

Again, this it to take nothing away from the perusing of a firearm interest or project.

[Encore64]

For me, it has to be a Single Shot. As far as I know, all the originals were. Of course, they were black powder too. So...

I see no reason a repeater couldn't be used. "Rook Rifle" is just a term for a sport in that day. If you have a 30-06 "Deer Rifle" it just implies you're a deer hunter. Doesn't mean the gun can't be used on many types of game.

I gravitated towards Rook Rifles because it implies small bore, small capacity, cast bullet guns.

[scotth]

Personal preferences aside, do you feel that a lever, pump, or auto loader could be considered a ‘rook rifle’?

i think any platform would work just fine for me i want something light thats why the single shot rifle. i dont think there is any set rules for the rook/small game rifle.

i have always thought the 357 max would make a good one max for deer and down load for small game.