jeffh
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,749
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Post by jeffh on Nov 26, 2021 19:28:14 GMT -5
I do NOT want to pollute the creative process here, but long thought brought me to the 357 case for my personal choice for similar endeavors for several reasons, mostly practical.
It's small enough;
BIG enough;
common enough;
Wide range of bullet weights/styles (cast);
VERY amenable to a WIDE range of powders;
Easy to load;
Etc.
I felt it the perfect combination of compromises for such a carbine/rifle for general utility about the homestead, but have always pretty much despised it as a revolver round until I started loading it with heavier bullets and at lower pressures than what was common 40 years ago. That said, commonality of components and the ability to use scrounged 38 Special brass in either handgun or carbine, PLUS (this is the part which may pollute) being able to use it legally to hunt deer in Ohio made it make the most sense.
I'm not casting a vote for the 35s as the perfect Rook Rifle cartridge, but danged if it doesn't bring a lot of plusses to the table.
For me, the deer thing made it a cheap and easy way out of a long and involved bit of testing. I think the 30s and 32s have tremendous merit for this application and have struggled to not spring for a 32 Mag or 327 barrel for some time. I keep telling myself that my 35s have to be my 32s, as I hope to retire some day and would imagine I'm still going to want to eat too.
@encore64, I have one especially unique 32 cal bullet I'd be happy to share if you want to broaden your selection. It started as a LEE C309-113-RF, which took a gas check and cast as .313", not .309". I removed the GC shank from the mould and it casts 188 grain, plain base bullets that shoot amazingly in my 30/30 Contender Carbine at around 1200 fps. I also have RDO's final rendition of his 165 grain 30/30 FP (w/GC) if interested. I would be happy to donate to the cause if you are interested. I can almost squeek .313" out of that 165 too.
Likewise, if you pursue the 35 caliber, I may have a couple 35s you don't, as I de-gas-checked three of four cavities of a NOE 360-180 WFN and recently got an Arsenal 358-158 RF RDO "clone," which is also a flat base.
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Post by Encore64 on Nov 26, 2021 19:42:05 GMT -5
Jeff, by all means, all input is welcome...
I think you're spot on with the 35s. The 360 No. 5 Rook was a well known cartridge back in the day. The 38 Special or 357 Magnum could be loaded down to duplicate original ballistics or loaded up for deer size game.
Your TC Contender Carbine 357 Magnum seems perfect for a cast bullet Rook Rifle. Hopefully, you can develop some quiet, mild mannered loads and contribute to this. It always is better when multiple forum members can experiment and report on one thread.
I settled on the 30 Reece as "MY" perfect Rook Rifle, not "THE" perfect Rook Rifle. Others opinion will surely vary.
One of the reasons was because any jacketed or cast 32 Caliber Bullets can be sized down and used in the .308" Bore. The opposite, of course, isn't possible. This increases bullet selection by 50% or more.
I sent in a request for Henry to add the 327 Federal to their fine single shot lineup. They already have barrel stock and reamers. Hopefully, more members will join in.
They already make it in 357 Magnum. It should be nearly a perfect choice as is...
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jeffh
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,749
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Post by jeffh on Nov 26, 2021 22:29:01 GMT -5
........ I sent in a request for Henry to add the 327 Federal to their fine single shot lineup. They already have barrel stock and reamers. Hopefully, more members will join in. They already make it in 357 Magnum. It should be nearly a perfect choice as is... I may be mistaken, but Henry has seemed to think a bit forwardly a little and I am surprised they haven't done the 327 yet. I would have pronounced the 327 dead a week after it came out except that demand remains tenacious in spit of initial shortages of ammo and brass and now this - the drought. I'm no marketing expert, but I'd put money on people buying everything 327 they could get their hands on - IF they could get their hands on it.
Your 30 Reece will benefit from (relatively speaking) easier to source and less expensive brass. I've tracked several cases over the past several years, based on Starline pricing and in 2019, 32 Mag cases were ONE CENT more than 357 cases. Not that it makes a big difference when the choice is between the two, but given that there is significantly more raw material in the "cheaper" case, economies of scale are showing which one is most likely to be given production priority.
Yes, QUIET. A few weeks ago, I had to "evict" a big ol' woodchuck who took up residence 30 feet from my back porch. The presence of a 'chuck that close to a porch portends of foundation damage and a serious extrication problem. A 358-429 HP cast of almost pure lead, going about 550 fps and making VERY little noise made very short and undramatic work of the chore. This was with a very small charge of HP38 and years of testing using several rifles. That's a long subject in itself, but for the comfort of others, I'll add that this requires extensive, careful testing and I did due diligence and am not being reckless in that endeavor.
I DID dabble with a 30 cal Rook Rifle, which I had forgotten! I had a H&R 300 BLK that was cut as a bug and shot great. This was when "everyone" called it a passing fad and didn't want to talk about it, but I shot it like a Rook Rifle and only shot cast. It had a .308 bore, of course, but I sized a few different 32 bullets to .310" for it, to include the Lee C309-113, before I made it a plain-base, the RCBS 32 cal 98 grain SWC. BOT shot great using small charges of Unique and HP-38/W231. I also shot 165 grain RDO FPs and 170 grain Lee 308 RFs at mundane, handgun-level velocities and it shot five shots under an inch at fifty yards, group after group. It was an amazingly fun gun and I sometimes wish I still had it, but I use my 30/30 for that now.
One of the appealing aspects of the 300 BLK was that brass was so cheap and easy to "make." I converted a Lee 7.62x39 collet neck sizer to fit the 300 BLK.
Your project has me stirred up again. This is really a fun pursuit. It wasn't my idea to revisit or revive the Rook Rifle - I was finding the perfect "homestead rifle" for my needs. You are taking this to a level I didn't even think to appreciate at the time.
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Post by Encore64 on Nov 26, 2021 22:35:55 GMT -5
At one time, several TC Barrel Offered the 300 BO Rimmed. Was simply the Starline 360 Dan Wesson Brass run thru a 300 BO Sizer Die. It would be a gem in this category.
Some might still make it if we said please...
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Post by flyingzebra on Nov 26, 2021 22:36:42 GMT -5
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Post by flyingzebra on Nov 26, 2021 22:44:47 GMT -5
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Post by Encore64 on Nov 26, 2021 22:53:53 GMT -5
Don't believe I want to experiment that bad John.
At this point I'd wager the Rook Cartridge was more of a loading than an actual design.
I've ruled a 22 version out. Cast 22 bullets cost more than jacketed and I'm not interested in casting.
Well covered in the 25, 32 and 36 Calibers. It's just a matter of developing loads, etc. The 30 Reece is ordered and it's just a waiting game now.
Uberti does make a nice LoWall 32-20 that might be spot on as is.
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Post by x101airborne on Nov 27, 2021 7:03:13 GMT -5
Flyingzebra.... when I clicked on those links and the home page came up my computer gave me a warning box that said "You do not have enough credit card for this page.". LOL!
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Post by Encore64 on Nov 27, 2021 8:18:52 GMT -5
Have always thought the 38 Super would be a really good choice for these rounds.
Unfortunately, can't find a barrel maker that offers it.
9mm cast bullets are plentiful and usually quite affordable. Powder capacity is low and a pound goes a long way.
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jeffh
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,749
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Post by jeffh on Nov 27, 2021 9:45:02 GMT -5
Have always thought the 38 Super would be a really good choice for these rounds. Unfortunately, can't find a barrel maker that offers it. 9mm cast bullets are plentiful and usually quite affordable. Powder capacity is low and a pound goes a long way. There ARE so many possibilities.
Given the vast number of cartridge case, bullet, powder combinations, the wide array of firearms types, chamberings, budgets, personal preferences and needs, availability factors, what tools and resources one does or doesn't have, it' probably still a finite number of possibilities, but even between the lot of us and what years we have left, all the possibilities would never get tested hypothetically, let alone in material terms.
I may be strange, not that bright or just easily amused, but the entertainment factor - diverting one's brain from daily grind stuff and things we have to think about but which are too taxing to do it constantly - is particularly beneficial and a wonderful break from the market-driven ballast, motivated solely by selling more stuff and modern production means and the "shiny object syndrome," is invaluable, even for the hundreds of possibilities which do not come to fruition. Something to keep the mind working on which productive and positive, even if in the end it is manifested in a $200, finish-worn Handi-Rifle chambered for something no one makes but YOU.
I've tried to document my own short foray into a similar project, not nearly as exciting or creative, and it's a tome which jut keeps getting longer as I keep remembering more and more details about directions I took and why each did or didn't get me any closer to where I was going. Seriously - my own project was very mundane in comparison to how this newly germinated seed has gone already, but I can already hear several sirens' songs tempting several very different mindsets - which is SO much more fun than trying to convince each other on which recent wonder we can stuff into an AR (nothing against ARs or what we stuff into them).
Not so much to get all philosophical, boys, rather to say this particular rabbit hole ("bunny-gun" hole?  ) looks like it's going to be fun, as it's already looking more like the Minotaur's labyrinth and there are multiple paths per explorer to pursue while occasionally bumping into one another at intersections.
This is exciting!
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Post by Encore64 on Nov 27, 2021 10:40:17 GMT -5
I've been into firearms since 1979 and one theme has always reared it's ugly head. "How much power/range can we get out of a gun" is dominant.
Few people ever seen to step back and think about how much they actually need.
That's all well and good I suppose. But, what happens when supplies become limited?
A while back when gasoline was dirt cheap, several friends went out and bought Monster Trucks. Some financed for six or seven years. Now, with expensive gasoline, they are living paycheck to paycheck.
A century plus ago, people lived off small game. With no way to freeze meat, killing a meal here and there made sense. I'm not a Conspiracy Theorist, but not convinced those times are limited to history.
Short version is we don't always have to burn 65 grns of powder behind a Barnes X-Bullet to put food on the table.
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Post by tdbarton on Nov 27, 2021 10:49:24 GMT -5
I've been into firearms since 1979 and one theme has always reared it's ugly head. "How much power/range can we get out of a gun" is dominant. Few people ever seen to step back and think about how much they actually need. Yes, this. And I extend that to handguns as well, which may not be a terribly popular opinion on this forum. I always say “Bigger bores for bigger chores” but my chores never really get that big. A lot of joy and satisfaction can be found in the smaller stuff. |
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Post by Encore64 on Nov 27, 2021 11:07:51 GMT -5
I've already had the same evil thoughts. Everything we've discussed here can be carried over to the TC Contender Pistol.
I have 10-12" barrels in 25-20, 30 Reece, 321 GNR and probably a few more. A Rolling Block Pistol in 357 Magnum.
For those that prefer handgun hunting, the Rook Cartridges are just as useful...
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Post by flyingzebra on Nov 27, 2021 11:11:35 GMT -5
Flyingzebra.... when I clicked on those links and the home page came up my computer gave me a warning box that said "You do not have enough credit card for this page.". LOL! That's funny :-) Just showing that there's enough interest in the concept to keep some high-end artists employed in the craft on rook rifle projects. Do note that there is also current demand for rook rifles costing ten or more times those figures. I support the enthusiasm around the purposeful small-game and varmint cartridges and the guns that run them. I really like vintage high-grade rook rifles. I've taken far more animals with small bore guns than I have with high-power rifles. I get very high fun factor out of my early vintage Colt Lightning in 32-20, and my current ranch walking handgun is an early first model Colt Police Positive in 32 New Police |
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jeffh
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,749
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Post by jeffh on Nov 27, 2021 11:15:20 GMT -5
I've been into firearms since 1979 and one theme has always reared it's ugly head. "How much power/range can we get out of a gun" is dominant. Few people ever seen to step back and think about how much they actually need. Yes, this. And I extend that to handguns as well, which may not be a terribly popular opinion on this forum. I always say “Bigger bores for bigger chores” but my chores never really get that big. A lot of joy and satisfaction can be found in the smaller stuff. Agreed 100% on both previous posts. A thread like this could go a log ways in imparting some sense a LOT Of shooters who never had the privilege of this sort of influence. I was somewhat recently expressing my consternation regarding "kids these days" and my sister gave me a wake-up call, referring to our childhood, which had its unpleasantries, and told me "we were lucky - privileged," (WHAT??) "we grew up in a tougher world and learned a lot of things others can't even imagine..." Changed my perspective a bit. Made me very proud of my sister too.
Growing up around what I perceived to be an awful lot of very privileged "other" kids, I've come to realize that I was the one who grew up privileged, as I find myself teaching people how to do the simplest things regarding "home economics" as my grandmother used to say - "don't boil a whole pot of water for one cup of coffee!" My grandfather shot squirrels out of the same box of fifty 22 longs for several squirrel seasons and had a squirrel to account for each one expended.
Tim, my passion in handguns is the 44 Special, you know that. I have ONE 44 Special now - ONE 44 Special to which all of my finite supply of large pistol primers is dedicated. I'm in your camp there, and have, for the third (and probably final) time in my life shifted my focus to the 35s in deference to limitations of resources. I thought long and hard and almost went the 32 route, but I recycle my lead and I can get 1k loads out of a can of Unique for my 44, and many more than that out of my 35s.
I think this thread has the potential to have a serious, positive impact on many who may be suffering for their ignorance at the moment. I hope it reaches a lot of people, because adapting to the drought is is the only way to beat it. Besides, figuring out how do the most with the least is really a rewarding and enjoyable endeavor. My casting and reloading outfits have had this same Spartan principle applied, wherein I don't have any cool gadgets - just the (almost) bare minimum.
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) looks like it's going to be fun, as it's already looking more like the Minotaur's labyrinth and there are multiple paths per explorer to pursue while occasionally bumping into one another at intersections.