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Post by rjm52 on Mar 8, 2021 21:30:05 GMT -5
hummmm...maybe that is why the tips just melt off and the base keeps going... It has been a while since I put a fingrnail to one so you are probably correct...
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Post by bushog on Mar 8, 2021 21:34:18 GMT -5
Theres a previous post about these bullets and thats what Bradshaw said.
That the jacket sort of cuts the hp petals off and the base carries on.
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Post by x101airborne on Mar 8, 2021 23:01:49 GMT -5
"Blazer case". By chance do you mean that aluminum case stuff?
I blew up a Browning High Power Belgian shooting that stuff.
A round went pffft instead of Pow and I loaded another. Stupid me.
I near literally ate my words. NEVER AGAIN.
In my defense I was 19 and didn't know better, but I got a real education on round 2!
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kgb
.30 Stingray
Posts: 134
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Post by kgb on Mar 9, 2021 10:24:17 GMT -5
Yep, them are the ones. Searching for images I only run across the Gold Dot versions of the .41 but someone auctioned a single round of the 200gr HP's this year: www.gunauction.com/buy/17124277 . |
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Post by x101airborne on Mar 9, 2021 16:57:57 GMT -5
Hogs have been getting at our fields again. Time to do some trappin'.
Slaughtered a couple out the other day for folks to eat. Now that my obligations are taken care of, time to have some fun!
Had 4 - 100 pound hogs in the big pen trap this morning. I decided to test out the above bullet on them just to see how it works. These were loaded in 41 magnum cases, magnum primer and the above 41 cal Speer "Half Jacket" 210 gr. hollow point pushed by 10.7gr HS-6. This is a full book load as I remember. All hogs got shot twice (cause I can, plus I was practicing my double tap skills).
Weapon of choice is my Smith and Wesson 4 inch model 58 that has an action smoother than smooth. Shots were on moving animals at 30 feet. Even on raking shots, these bullets held together and penetrated the full length of the hog. I did recover two sheared petals from the bullets where they blew out the off side ribs. These pieces were just under the hide so I am guessing that they sheared going through the second set of ribs. Bones were completely shattered and lots of broken bits hanging out of the holes. All bullets exited except the one that was fired into the hogs brain. It was somewhere in the skull where I couldn't get to it without a saw and I didn't feel like all that.
Lord, how I lament the passing of these fine hollow points. I wouldn't hesitate for a second using these in a defensive situation.
Anyone wants me to text them a picture of the gun and loads I can, but there is a bit of gore.
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Post by mart on Mar 11, 2021 12:32:39 GMT -5
Don't try to load them too light get a jacket stuck in barrel....... I wish someone would explain the physics of this phenomenon. I've heard it a few times regarding these bullets as well as Hawk bullets. Yet never, in 45 years of shoting, seen any empirical evidence. Every account I have heard has been anecdotal with nothing to substantiate it.
I just don't see how a full bore diameter, copper jacket being pushed by expanding gasses can manage to expel the core of the bullet and leave the jacket. The jacket, which in itself is the seal between the gasses and the bore would have to continue to move forward as the gasses expand. It would seem that any load light enough to stick one of these Speer bullets would stick any bullet, regardless of the construction.
My apologies if this comes off as snarky but this this is one of those shooting myths that seems to keep resurfacing without any actual evidence.
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Post by bushog on Mar 11, 2021 13:03:29 GMT -5
Don't try to load them too light get a jacket stuck in barrel....... I wish someone would explain the physics of this phenomenon. I've heard it a few times regarding these bullets as well as Hawk bullets. Yet never, in 45 years of shoting, seen any empirical evidence. Every account I have heard has been anecdotal with nothing to substantiate it.
I just don't see how a full bore diameter, copper jacket being pushed by expanding gasses can manage to expel the core of the bullet and leave the jacket. The jacket, which in itself is the seal between the gasses and the bore would have to continue to move forward as the gasses expand. It would seem that any load light enough to stick one of these Speer bullets would stick any bullet, regardless of the construction.
My apologies if this comes off as snarky but this this is one of those shooting myths that seems to keep resurfacing without any actual evidence.
I have to admit I thought the same thing.... |
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Post by blackmamba on Mar 11, 2021 19:15:40 GMT -5
That makes at least three of us!
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Post by bushog on Mar 11, 2021 19:52:06 GMT -5
Maybe Mr Taffin will chime in....
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Post by bradshaw on Mar 11, 2021 21:05:57 GMT -5
I wish someone would explain the physics of this phenomenon. I've heard it a few times regarding these bullets as well as Hawk bullets. Yet never, in 45 years of shoting, seen any empirical evidence. Every account I have heard has been anecdotal with nothing to substantiate it.
I just don't see how a full bore diameter, copper jacket being pushed by expanding gasses can manage to expel the core of the bullet and leave the jacket. The jacket, which in itself is the seal between the gasses and the bore would have to continue to move forward as the gasses expand. It would seem that any load light enough to stick one of these Speer bullets would stick any bullet, regardless of the construction.
My apologies if this comes off as snarky but this this is one of those shooting myths that seems to keep resurfacing without any actual evidence.
I have to admit I thought the same thing.... ***** I shot years of bullets swaged from pure lead cores into half-jackets, never came close to sticking a half-jacket in the bore. A half-jacket and the mainstay 3/4-jacket are known in bullet making as JACKET REARWARD construction. The traditional FMJ (Full Metal Jacket) is, on the other hand, of JACKET FORWARD construction. To my knowledge, two types of firearm had demonstrated an ability shed jackets in the bore. A deep crimp cannelure provides a weakness which increases the chance for a jacket/core separation. A rough, sharp LEADE between chamber and rifling may seize the jacket, causing the core to push the jacket nose out the bore, while leaving the bearing surface portion of the jacket stuck in the bore. I know of this happening with the Sierra .357 170 FMJ in a T/C Contender. Don’t remember whether the Contender was chambered in .357 Herrett or .357 Magnum. The same jacket separation happened in a revolver, except the bearing surface of the jacket stuck in the forcing cone, preventing rotation. Scenes for this ribaldry were IHMSA silhouette matches. The forcing cone was rough as a cob. Chamber-to-bore misalignment may have contributed. High pressure in a revolver may act to pry the FMJ jacket away from the heel of the bullet. If the forcing cone resembles a grain funnel the bullet is in for a rough ride. David Bradshaw |
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Post by ddixie884 on Mar 12, 2021 0:03:31 GMT -5
Don't try to load them too light get a jacket stuck in barrel....... I wish someone would explain the physics of this phenomenon. I've heard it a few times regarding these bullets as well as Hawk bullets. Yet never, in 45 years of shoting, seen any empirical evidence. Every account I have heard has been anecdotal with nothing to substantiate it.
I just don't see how a full bore diameter, copper jacket being pushed by expanding gasses can manage to expel the core of the bullet and leave the jacket. The jacket, which in itself is the seal between the gasses and the bore would have to continue to move forward as the gasses expand. It would seem that any load light enough to stick one of these Speer bullets would stick any bullet, regardless of the construction.
My apologies if this comes off as snarky but this this is one of those shooting myths that seems to keep resurfacing without any actual evidence.
I shall cancel my post and you may all shoot them at any velocity you may choose........... |
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rkrcpa
.30 Stingray
Posts: 263
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Post by rkrcpa on Mar 12, 2021 6:47:26 GMT -5
Notice the third paragraph. This is an excerpt from the Lyman #44 loading manual. The same admonition appears with the 44 special data regarding the half jacket bullets. The date of publication is 1967 which precludes this from being "internet legend".  |
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Post by bradshaw on Mar 12, 2021 8:00:59 GMT -5
My experience with the (discontinued) Speer half-jacket bullets is limited to 146 SWC HP & 160 SWC in .357, and 225 SWC HP & 240 SWC in .44 Mag. Never had a lick of trouble.
The Speer Reloading Manual from 1979 shows data for .38 Special & .357 Mag, but omits the Speer half-jackets from data for the .357 Herrett.
Speer 1979 lists HALF-JACKET 200 SWC HP & 220 SWC as its only .41 bullets
S&W M-57 6” bbl, 1:18-3/4” twist
Speer 200 SWC HP
* 22/Win 296=1348 fps
* 18.5/Hercules 2400=1384 fps
* 14.2/Hercules Blue Dot=1361
Speer 220 SWC
* 20.4/Win 296=1305 fps
* 17.5/Hercules 2400=1297 fps
* 14.2/Hercules Blue Dot=1310 fps
These are NOT STARTING LOADS. Note, also, the listed Blue Dot is a medium burn pistol powder. It does not have the forgiveness of a slow powder near the red line. Nor, for that matter, has 2400 quite the forgiveness of 296/H110 at the red line.
David Bradshaw
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Post by x101airborne on Mar 12, 2021 8:04:13 GMT -5
Would that be the reason so many powder / data companies have started omitting the Blue Dot data from their 41 loadings?
Load Data dot com has a banner about it above every 41 magnum section.
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Post by bradshaw on Mar 12, 2021 8:21:48 GMT -5
Would that be the reason so many powder / data companies have started omitting the Blue Dot data from their 41 loadings? Load Data dot com has a banner about it above every 41 magnum section. ***** Can only speak from personal experience. A careful handloader should not get into trouble. If not understand, all bandleaders should respect a smokeless propellant’s ability to deviate character when pushed out of its zone. Some powders get frisky quick. My late shooting partner, Ed Verge, lived with a an 8-3/8” M-57 on his hip. That, at the time I lived with the M-29 6-1/2” on my hip. Ed’s careful loading the .41 Rem Mag with Hercules Blue Dot showed a propensity to quickly change mood with a small increase. I was present during this loading and agreed he should discontinue Blue Dot in .41 Mag. My own turn a way from Hercules Blue Dot came in auto pistols, which had more to do with SLIDE ACCELERATION than pressure per se. The issue with auto pistols loads is not so clear cut, as powder VOLUME affects slide acceleration. David Bradshaw |
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