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Post by boolitdesigner on Dec 19, 2017 13:47:41 GMT -5
Leadheads over all length of 440gr WFNGC .904" with a nose to crimp of .384" LEADHEADS -- Bullet in case .520" (.904 total length minus .384 nose to crimp)" Cartridge OAL with 501640 in top crimp groove = 1.786" assuming 1.400" cases. 1.792" measurement given = 0.006" clearance, 0.506" in case and 0.386" crimp to meplat. A trimmed case would give you all the clearance needed. It should work fine in a FA from what you've given. |
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Post by boolitdesigner on Dec 19, 2017 21:15:35 GMT -5
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ryan
.30 Stingray
Posts: 402 
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Post by ryan on Dec 19, 2017 21:30:30 GMT -5
Very nice! I'm in if we're making a buy on this one...
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Post by jjsharpshooter on Dec 19, 2017 21:45:30 GMT -5
Looks great, as the designer, what do you think about this mold, accuracy at long range, problems with 3 crimp grooves? |
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Post by lloydsmale43 on Dec 20, 2017 5:44:12 GMT -5
Heres my take on it fermin. I guess I'm a bit old school. I believe the same as old elmer and John L. did. A good flat nosed bullet at moderate velocitys does a lot of killing. I was fortunate to to have a best friend that forgot more about killing with a handgun then I will ever know. I know he shares my opinion on this subject. Weve actually killed things and did our own penetration testing. Id about bet fermin will attest to that. Ive played quite a bit with hp cast bullets. As a matter of fact I prefer them in the 9mm 40sw ect. Ive also used them with good luck on deer and black bear sized game out of 41s 44s and 45s. Did they work any better then lfns or kieths? Nope. dead is dead and a deer hit in the vitals with an lfn is a dead deer. It might take a step or two more then one hit with a hp but that's pretty trivial. On truly large game Elmer and Veral already designed the premium cast bullet. Ive only seen one bullet that might be a tad better and that is kellys punch bullets. Why? because no matter what angle you shoot something the bullet is going to drive into the vitals (if its properly placed) It will punch through BIG bone it will punch through stem to stern. Its longer narrower wound channel is just as destructive as the short but wider hp wound channel is. The problem with cast hps is that you have to find the right alloy and the alloy ideal for a 800lb cow buffalo slipped between the ribs isn't the same ideal alloy for a 2000lb buffalo hit in the shoulder. Yes i know that casted a bit hard the peddles will peal off and leave the rest of the bullet to penetrate but will it still penetrate straight. Will the peddles break off the exact same way everytime with any shot placement? Weve found in penetration testing that even a slightly deformed nose on an lfn or kieth can cause a bullet to go right out the bottom of the box. I will also say that in my experience the harder the alloy in a good gun the more accurately it shoots. Now that said I know you don't need a one inch group at 25 yards to kill a buffalo even at a 100 yards but id rather have more accuracy then less any day in the hunting field. i also agree with the other poster that said NO handgun is going to shock a buffalo. Not the way a 257wby shocks a whitetail. Ive seen buffalo shot that kept right on eating. Saw one AL shot at about 60 yards broadside casusaly walk away with blood spraying out both sides like it was a garden hose. It didn't even flinch at the shot. Quickest kill ive seen on a buffalo was with my 4 5/8s super 44 mag loaded with a 250 kieth at about 1100 fps. I didn't intend to shoot one that day. Al was suppose to but i was given an offer i couldn't refuse and it was the gun i had. At the shot blood sprayed out of its mouth and nose and it took one step and piled up dead. Would a 500 have done it any better? i doubt it. Would a hp have done it any better? I doubt it. it was just that the stars were aligned that day. Nothing wrong with playing around with something new. I do it too but I sure don't think I'm reinventing the wheel. Years ago Elmer and Veral designed the ultimate cast bullets for big game. Yup maybe I'm a bit to old school. Maybe like another poster said i didn't do it right.  You know how it can be for us newbies at the sport. Ive only been handgun hunting for a bit over 30 years maybe someday ill learn  I know that if I was going to go out this morning and kill a buffalo with a handgun id take either a 475 or 500 and it would be loaded with a heavy Lfn or kieth and id about bet id be having steak for supper. If i didn't it sure wouldn't be the bullets fault it would be my own. A good hard cast lfn wfn or keith is going to work every time. A hp might give you 3 or 4 dramatic kills and on the 5th animal be a total failure. Maybe that buffalo isn't standing at an ideal angle. Maybe my alloy is ideal for 50 yards and i get a 15 yard or 100 yard shot. maybe only half the nose peals off. To many maybes for me when it comes to killing a living breathing animal. |
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Post by boolitdesigner on Dec 20, 2017 8:09:46 GMT -5
Lloyd-
The mold comes with several pins, hollow points and a blank pin for that flat nose..... your choice as to what you use. Had you have tested what the HP pins did, you would have known they blow off inside the vitals. You shoot an animal with a HP, put it in the vital organs if it's big, not the shoulder.
Boolitdesigner aka 45 2.1
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Post by boolitdesigner on Dec 20, 2017 22:33:35 GMT -5
Looks great, as the designer, what do you think about this mold, accuracy at long range, problems with 3 crimp grooves? I've shot many of the 640 nose bullets long range (300 yards and farther) out of revolvers and rifles. They all shot groups that most people say can't be done. Those are bullets I cast out of my alloy and loaded myself out of my firearms. You should ask of folks here what they've done. |
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Post by jjsharpshooter on Dec 20, 2017 23:06:13 GMT -5
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Post by lloydsmale43 on Dec 21, 2017 6:21:53 GMT -5
Looks great, as the designer, what do you think about this mold, accuracy at long range, problems with 3 crimp grooves? I've shot many of the 640 nose bullets long range (300 yards and farther) out of revolvers and rifles. They all shot groups that most people say can't be done. Those are bullets I cast out of my alloy and loaded myself out of my firearms. You should ask of folks here what they've done. don't totally agree with this either. It is common practice to shoot large dangerous animals in the shoulder to anchor them. Also ive handgun hunted long enough to know you sometimes don't get to choose between behind the shoulder or on the shoulder and under field conditions at a 100 yards with an open sited handgun and the stress of the hunt a behind the shoulder shot can magicaly become a shoulder shot or an animal can take a step just as your squeezing off a shot. Having the capability to break big bone or drive a bullet at an angle into the vitals can mean the difference in eating back straps or bacon for breakfast. Im not going to get into a P_____G match about this. All I wanted to do is post my real world experiences with them to give a different perspective to someone that is on the line about this. Personaly you couldn't make me go hunting with a 475 or larger handgun shooting hps. Ive seen them fail and have never seen a lfn or swc fail. So why would I want to roll the dice again. if you cant cleanly kill an animal with a 500 shooting lfns then maybe you should consider a rifle. A hp sure isn't going to kill something a flat nosed bullet wont. If they were an advantage on truly large animals then I would have to guess that every guide in ak or Africa would have them loaded in there stopping rilfes. They have learned with experience that penetration trumps everything. Ive casted and shot as many cast bullets as anyone here and have probably killed as much game with them as anyone here and anyone here that knows me knows there isn't an ounce of bs in me. I have nothing to gain by stating my opinion here. I'm not trying to push or sell a product or even shove my opinion down anyones throat. Buy what you want. Ive said my piece. I apologize if anyone took this as a personal attack on there level of knowlege. It sure wasn't meant to be. |
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450ak
.30 Stingray
Posts: 458
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Post by 450ak on Dec 21, 2017 9:30:35 GMT -5
Hello Lloyd, Frank here. After killing lots of bison with solid Keith bullets in 45,475 and 500L, they work. Jeff killed a whitetail this year with a hollow point 500L, pretty gruesome result. Left hip was the entry and the bullet ended up against the hide in the right shoulder. Nicely expanded but missing two petals. The bullet is the NOE 50/450 round flat. Jeff made a Penta pin for it because we like that style hollow point. They sure work well on varmints......
Say hi to Al
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Post by 2 Dogs on Dec 21, 2017 14:53:09 GMT -5
Well Lloyd, I sure wouldn't want to do or say anything to make you feel unwelcome because you and Al are some of the most generous and best folks I have ever known. I think sometimes a good deal of why things seem different to us comes down to how and WHERE we hunt. For example, I have never shot a Bison. You can put everything I know about shooting Bison on a postage stamp in BIG PRINT. But I have shot lots and lots of hogs. Back in the day I cast my bullets as hard as I could and I used LBT style bullets. You know this, the molds belonged to you and Al. Well, I can't argue with the penetration end of what you are saying but I can tell you that unless I shot that hog in the head they ALWAYS got up and ran off into the brush regardless of presentation. Yes I broke shoulders and hips and such and yes they were on 3 legs, some of them were hit so hard they spun around like a top. I like HPs better because they leave a better blood trail. Tracking Texas brush country ain't tracking over snow. We often shoot from an elevated position here and the problem with that is that a high hit animal won't leak from the exit hole until his body cavity fills up with blood to that point. I don't know about what other guys see, the big flat nose bullets work for lots of my very best friends just fine. I'm not using them anymore. The LFNs and such do kill deer alright. Eventually. The big HP 640 design however makes a big cotton pickin' exit hole in them. Tracking them is much simpler because you may go some 6 feet. Hell, even as blind as I am I can track for 6 feet!!
We have learned to better alloy our bullets. Not so hard is better. The long shank HP 640 design is a far more versatile and better bullet than the LFN and especially the WFN ever thought of being (with all due respect to their designer). If you want to break shoulders, alloy your bullet accordingly and either use the solid pin or cup point option. Otherwise shoot em' through the heart lungs with a bullet MEANT to expand and get ready to get your feet bloody. Or if you are like me, scatter their skull with lead petals.
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Post by lloydsmale43 on Dec 21, 2017 16:28:44 GMT -5
I sure wont argue that a 512 hp wont kill the crap out of a whitetail or pig. I also wont say ive never killed pigs and deer with 500s and 475s but I guess I got the "I killed something with my linebaugh" out of my system and tend to use 41s, 44s and 45s on deer blackbear or pigs. To be totally honest I haven't even handgun hunted in the last 3 years. My eyes have gotten bad enough that 25 yards and MAYBE 50 is about it for me on something the size of a whitetail. For the most part 90 percent of my whitetail hunting these days is doing crop damage shooting at a potato farm. Ive shot a couple that walked out close to the truck with handguns but 90 percent of our shots are 300-400 yards and that's scoped bolt action territory. Probably 90 percent of my handgun shooting over the last few years fermin has been with 1911s and black guns. I do play a lot with cast in them though. They work great cast soft and partical coated. Have you tried pc coating? It allows you to shoot a pure or near pure bullet at top end handgun velocitys and hps come unglued. Nice thing about it to is there about as clean as a jacketed bullet. One day last summer I put 500 through my 9mm ar15 cast out of 5050 pure/ww ran a wet patch though the barrel and then a dry one and that was all it took to clean the barrel. It takes me a lot longer to get copper fouling out when I use jacketed bullets.
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Post by lloydsmale43 on Dec 21, 2017 16:32:54 GMT -5
Hello Lloyd, Frank here. After killing lots of bison with solid Keith bullets in 45,475 and 500L, they work. Jeff killed a whitetail this year with a hollow point 500L, pretty gruesome result. Left hip was the entry and the bullet ended up against the hide in the right shoulder. Nicely expanded but missing two petals. The bullet is the NOE 50/450 round flat. Jeff made a Penta pin for it because we like that style hollow point. They sure work well on varmints...... Say hi to Al Hey old friend how are you doing?? Hows things out there in Gods country! Ive been having a tough year. 3 back operations and broke my shoulder having an epileptic seizure. Never had one before in my life. Been doing way to much recliner time. Hope you've been doing well. Say hi to Jeff for me and I sure will tell Al hi for you. Just got off the phone to him a couple hours ago. He hasn't had a good year either but then he hasn't had one in quite a few years. Hate to even wine about my aches and pains knowing what he deals with. |
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450ak
.30 Stingray
Posts: 458
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Post by 450ak on Dec 21, 2017 20:15:47 GMT -5
Four back surgeries with the last one ten hours long. Fused lumbar. Fused neck now, that was October 26.
Shooting 44 magnum today, 15 degrees but no WIND. Can shoot all the six-gun I want but no rifle until February.
Sad to hear your troubles, I feel blessed after all that Al has gone through. Getting old is tough. I do walk three to six miles a day every day.
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oger
.240 Incinerator
Posts: 5
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Post by oger on Dec 21, 2017 22:19:05 GMT -5
Looks like it should fit the 500 WE if you use the forward crimp groove.
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You know how it can be for us newbies at the sport. Ive only been handgun hunting for a bit over 30 years maybe someday ill learn 
I know that if I was going to go out this morning and kill a buffalo with a handgun id take either a 475 or 500 and it would be loaded with a heavy Lfn or kieth and id about bet id be having steak for supper. If i didn't it sure wouldn't be the bullets fault it would be my own. A good hard cast lfn wfn or keith is going to work every time. A hp might give you 3 or 4 dramatic kills and on the 5th animal be a total failure. Maybe that buffalo isn't standing at an ideal angle. Maybe my alloy is ideal for 50 yards and i get a 15 yard or 100 yard shot. maybe only half the nose peals off. To many maybes for me when it comes to killing a living breathing animal. 