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Post by Alaskan454 on Jan 24, 2017 10:02:05 GMT -5
When I started reading this forum a few years ago I could barely hit an 8" plate at 20 yards, though as most of you know we have some highly skilled handgunners around here that are willing to share their advice and expertise to help the rest of us mere mortals improve. Lee's 100 Yards and Iron Sights Thread has plenty of great information to help the shooter hone their skills and I sure appreciate the input our forums members have contributed there. Seancass also has The Benchrest Revolver Shooting Association thread going which again aims to push the limits of accuracy from a revolver and I am very interested to see how that evolves. These discussions got me thinking about the limits of accuracy for practical shooting. I was rereading Hamilton Bowen's book recently and he talks briefly about the following "In the author's view, a standard of accuracy that places more emphasis on the shooter's contribution is in order. A better measure of accuracy might be the maximum range at which a marksman can hit a 6" circle with a given gun and ammunition while standing on his own hind legs, as the gods intended. Firing a 6" group is not enough. All shots must land no farther than 3" away from the point of aim." He later goes on to state "A good shot can probably meet the 6" standard at 50 yards. An exceptional marksman might manage it fairly regularly at 100 yards." The measured variable here will be how far out one can achieve the 6" standard of accuracy while standing on their on their own two legs and I'm going to set the criteria for success as getting 5/5 hits. Essentially one full cylinder in the biggest of bores. I'm looking to start a thread that pushes us out of our respective comfort zones to explore the limits of shooter, firearm, and ammunition. Hamilton's suggested 50 yard distance is likely at the distal edge of my shooting skills even with my best gun on a good day. My range has 6" circular auto-poppers so I will be using those as my benchmark target to get started. Since I shoot a fair amount of USPSA and ICORE I have decided to attempt this first with my S&W 929 using iron sights. Later on I plan to try it with every gun I own to find my limit with each. I encourage all of you to give this a try on paper or steel and see how far out you can go.
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Post by alukban on Jan 24, 2017 11:39:23 GMT -5
I not only agree with these ideas regarding practical accuracy but also love shooting this way My own little "filter" for determining if a handgun is "shootably accurate" in my hands is whether I can reliably hit a 4" steel plate at 25y standing. Why not 6" at 50y or other variations thereof? Well... I have trouble seeing past 40y! My little "side range" - i.e. right beside my place
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Post by Alaskan454 on Jan 24, 2017 13:21:34 GMT -5
I like your range set-up, I chose 6" as a general goal but in the end the point stays the same. It's to find at what distance you can guarantee a hit on a given target. Thanks for sharing!
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Snyd
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Post by Snyd on Jan 24, 2017 13:54:04 GMT -5
This thread is kind of an extension of this one.... Shooting the Big Boomers UnsupportedHere's some standing off-hand shooting I was doing getting ready for moose hunting this year with the 500L. 53yds off hand, 455gr 1325fps. 12" steel, 9" circle. Into the sun, standing off hand, first 2 were in the center, next 2 were out, not sure where the 5th one went. I seem to be consistent in that my first 2 or 3 shots are the most accurate. Which is good for hunting I suppose but bad for pretty groups! At this point I think that on a good day I MIGHT be able to meet the 6" challenge at 50yds with the 500L. Awful close here, the 4 on the steel are about 6". The practice paid off. I killed a moose with one shot to the neck as he faced me, standing off-hand, 47 yds, 500L 455gr 1325fps.
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Post by alukban on Jan 24, 2017 15:17:12 GMT -5
Do you guys find it easier to use a 6:00 hold at 50y for a 6" plate?
For my eyes, I'm thinking it would be more precise than a center hold because that 6" is a mere dot and I doubt I can accurately split it in two with the front sight...
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Fowler
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Post by Fowler on Jan 24, 2017 15:26:29 GMT -5
Do you guys find it easier to use a 6:00 hold at 50y for a 6" plate? For my eyes, I'm thinking it would be more precise than a center hold because that 6" is a mere dot and I doubt I can accurately split it in two with the front sight... Absolutely a 6 oclock hold is the easiest to shoot well with BUT its not exactly practical for field shooting. What are you going to do guess on a coyotes chest how much 6 oclock hold you need to center the chest? I personally like to sight my guns into hit just above the front blade on a 50 yards target, hits pretty much just below the sight blade top at 75... Now if all we are trying to do is hit the target or shoot paper then yes sight in for the 6 oclock hold by all means...
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Post by webber on Jan 24, 2017 18:32:49 GMT -5
Firing a 6" group is not enough. All shots must land no farther than 3" away from the point of aim."
How much sense does that statement make? If one puts up six targets and shoots one shot on each target then that is a group,of shots. If one shoots one target only, fires one shot, lays the gun down and picks it up again for the next, each time to make six individual shots that is a group. One shoots a group period. The shots hit relative to where the sights are on the target when the gun goes off. No one can hold perfectly still. The sights constantly move unless one is using a rest. The accuracy of your gun and load and your movement area determines how well one shoots. Your sights will not be in the exact center of the Bullseye on each shot but some where moving around the center. Some will hold closer to the center than others. The more one practices the smaller the movement gets but will never go away completely. Anyone that thinks it does put an optical sight on your gun and get back to me on this.
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Post by bushog on Jan 24, 2017 18:41:38 GMT -5
I had to see what this was all about!
I won't even relay what came to mind........
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JM
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Post by JM on Jan 24, 2017 19:38:34 GMT -5
I had to see what this was all about! I won't even relay what came to mind........ From the ground?
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Odin
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Post by Odin on Jan 25, 2017 20:16:27 GMT -5
Firing a 6" group is not enough. All shots must land no farther than 3" away from the point of aim." How much sense does that statement make?... It actually makes a lot of sense, and practical sense at that. Let's stay I take up the challenge. My paper dessert plate (the mini-me to Lee Martin's paper plate targets) is set at 50 yards. I fire my group and take a walk to check how I did. Six hits within six inches!!! I'm pretty stoked!!! ... But only TWO hit the paper, around 7-o'clock. The rest are grouped nearby, low and left. Whatever. I keep banging away and my groups are tight. But I can't keep them all on the paper, ever. Some are low and right, some are left. Sometimes I'm a bit high. Heck, sometimes I'm outside the white completely. Big deal. Still a tight group. Right?!?! Well, here comes the practical part. Say I'm out in the field on opening day of deer season. Big buck walks out at 50 yards and I take aim. But you and I and the Good Lord know that I sure as hell can't hit where I'm actually aiming. If it goes right, I'll clip him in the brisket. Left, it's a gut shot. Low and... oh what a mess! The goal of the Marksmen is to hit the mark. Not near the mark, or close to the mark. A full cylinder. Standing position. In. The. White. Can you do it? I could probably pull it off with the Python, with practice, but I surely can't with the big boomers. Absolutely no way.... Not yet, anyway...
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Post by webber on Jan 26, 2017 7:57:21 GMT -5
I don't know about most but I sight my gun in. That way I won't group off the paper. Or am I missing something here?
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cmillard
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Post by cmillard on Jan 26, 2017 12:50:45 GMT -5
is it me or does the very top bullet hole with the 540 grain bullet look a little oblong? maybe its just me. fine shooting none the less.
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Post by rjm52 on Jan 26, 2017 21:39:32 GMT -5
Standing DA at 50 yards...the one shot that missed the plate was less than an inch out...so about a 7" group... Getting harder and harder to do with the eyes however... Bob
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Snyd
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Post by Snyd on Jan 27, 2017 10:13:33 GMT -5
Standing DA at 50 yards...the one shot that missed the plate was less than an inch out...so about a 7" group... Getting harder and harder to do with the eyes however... Bob DA? Holy smokes, cock the hammer and you'll have a one hole group! Nice shootin.
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Snyd
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Post by Snyd on Jan 27, 2017 13:06:15 GMT -5
is it me or does the very top bullet hole with the 540 grain bullet look a little oblong? maybe its just me. fine shooting none the less. It's an optical illusion. Here is the same load at 100yds. Nice round holes.
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