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Post by Quick Draw McGraw on Feb 27, 2016 21:23:36 GMT -5
Seriously, this has always bugged me. There are cartridges out there that aren't produced in any manufacturer's firearms making them custom-shop only, but ammo is made by major manufacturers. Then there are others that are opposite. Some have firearms factory chambered in them and factory ammo, but no SAAMI specs. So what really defines a cartridge as a Wildcat? I'm really interested to get some different opinions. Please share your thoughts.
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Post by magnumwheelman on Feb 27, 2016 21:45:59 GMT -5
In my opinion... probably a cartridge for which there is no SAMMI specifications for
But then I personally own several, that are not used as SAMMI intended... for example, my fast twist 22 hornet, with a 1 in 9 twist, instead of the standard 1 in 14... the faster twist allows me to stabilize heavier bullets, and thus load differently than the normal... my 25 acp revolver falls into the same category
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Post by Quick Draw McGraw on Feb 27, 2016 22:11:07 GMT -5
The SAAMI spec seems like a good benchmark. But the cartridges that make me question it is the .500 Linebaugh and the .500 JRH. Even the .500 WE. They all have factory made ammo, and save for the Linebaugh, all are factory chambered too. So would they be Wildcats? None have SAAMI Specs. You can see where my confusion comes from. So many blurred lines and gray areas.
And I too don't always follow the specs. Because I shoot .45 Colt out of my .454 Casull SRH, I always load it to +P numbers.
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Post by bigbrowndog on Feb 27, 2016 22:16:56 GMT -5
I've always gone with this definition, if you must fabricate the brass in order to have correct cases, then it's a wildcat. Key word is "must", although SAAMI spec would be a good one also, although there have been cartridges that didn't have SAAMI spec but did have a CIP or Euro spec.
Trapr
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Post by magnumwheelman on Feb 27, 2016 22:17:28 GMT -5
IMO... yes
22 TCM is another prime example... factory guns, factory ammo, yet no SAMMI specifications...
My buddy has one of these guns... factory ammo looks way over pressure, IMO
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Post by CraigC on Feb 28, 2016 11:08:59 GMT -5
Like I said in the other thread, I don't think SAAMI standards can be a proper benchmark. There are a good many cartridges that do not have SAAMI certification but are far from wildcats. Many European cartridges fall under this heading, there's no .404Jeffery or .450/.400. Not to mention old American cartridges like the .44Colt, .44Russian and .45S&W. I don't even see the .357Max, 375SuperMag, .414SuperMag or .445SuperMag.
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Post by Quick Draw McGraw on Feb 28, 2016 11:38:26 GMT -5
Craig, I think you make an excellent point. And it's this point that drives my question. Rounds like the Linebaugh and the Wyoming Express have established numbers and ammo, but at what point is something out of Wildcat Status and into mainstream?
It's a tough question to answer. Ive always felt you need two things: factory guns and factory ammo. So, .500 JRH? Not a Wildcat. But the .500 Linebaugh is such a well known cartridge that I have to question if my criteria is accurate as my criteria would make it a Wildcat. Keep the thoughts coming guys, this is good stuff.
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Post by magnumwheelman on Feb 28, 2016 11:50:18 GMT -5
I suppose if a cartridge is commercially manufactured, and maybe by more than one manufacturer, I could see that... but if just one company makes it, to me, doesn't legitimize the cartridge...
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Post by magnumwheelman on Feb 28, 2016 11:55:41 GMT -5
I just asked Google what the definition of a wildcat cartridge was...
And IMO I got an exceptable explanation
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Post by Quick Draw McGraw on Feb 28, 2016 12:13:52 GMT -5
I just asked Google what the definition of a wildcat cartridge was... And IMO I got an exceptable explanation I hate to be the grammar police, but I think you meant "acceptable". Just sayin'. And the definition I got seems legit, but is very open to interpretation: "A wildcat cartridge, often shortened to wildcat, is a custom cartridge for which ammunition and/or firearms are not mass-produced." I mean, the .480 Ruger is only made in small numbers by one manufacturer and has few ammo producers, yet has SAAMI Specs. But the Google definition could see it as a Wildcat. And I would not agree.
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Post by magnumwheelman on Feb 28, 2016 12:23:26 GMT -5
Yup spelling from my phone
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Post by Alaskan454 on Feb 28, 2016 23:46:47 GMT -5
If you can buy a gun and ammo/brass it's not a wildcat. If there is absolutely no source of commercial brass or ammo it's probably a wildcat, outdated cartridges included.
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edk
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Post by edk on Feb 29, 2016 7:40:38 GMT -5
In the purest sense, a wildcat possesses all of these conditions: - No SAAMI specification - No headstamped brass (must be formed) - No published loading data. - No factory produced ammunition. - No factory produced firearms. - No reloading dies available off the shelf. - No chambering reamers available off the shelf.
For example the none of the above apply to the 480 Ruger whereas one or more apply to some of the other cartridges being discussed. Not sure which subset of conditions need to apply to qualify but the answer might lie therein.
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Post by bradshaw on Feb 29, 2016 9:06:36 GMT -5
Seriously, this has always bugged me. There are cartridges out there that aren't produced in any manufacturer's firearms making them custom-shop only, but ammo is made by major manufacturers. Then there are others that are opposite. Some have firearms factory chambered in them and factory ammo, but no SAAMI specs. So what really defines a cartridge as a Wildcat? I'm really interested to get some different opinions. Please share your thoughts. Quick Draw McGraw.... respondents have supplied good answers, with case forming a necessary step for defining a "wildcat." Some examples may be instructive: * .35 Whelan----wildcat until Remington chambered rifles, made ammo, and pushed it through SAAMI. * .454 Casull----proprietary cartridge during period Freedom Arms made revolvers AND ammunition. Since brass was manufactured, no one called it a wildcat. Became a SAAMI cartridge with pressure specifications and proof ammo. Note: a top operating pressure of 65,000 makes proof loads problematic. * .357 Maximum----SAAMI certified with factory and proof ammo. The .357 Maximum never was a wildcat, nor ever a proprietary cartridge. * .44 Auto Mag----case made by trimming and reaming .30-06 or .308 brass. I never heard of a pressure standard. Widely considered a wildcat, although, supposedly, ammo was made in Mexico. * .357 Auto Mag----case made by trimming, necking, and reaming .30-06 or .308 brass. Wildcat. * 7mm TCU (Thompson/Center Ugalde)----T/C manufactured Contender barrels, MOA and other made guns. The owner made ammo by neck-expanding .223 brass. Only in France did the cartridge reach official designation, with factory ammo supplied to silhouette shooters. No SAAMI specs, although T/C established chamber specifications. * .375 Super Mag & .445 SM----specifications set by designer Elgin Gates. Never adopted by SAAMI. No factory ammo. Brass for .375 SM made by trimming .375 Winchester. Federal made .445 SM brass for Elgin Gates. In general, a case made by trimming another case is not considered a wildcat. While the old criteria implied some degree of case forming, it may be difficult to arrive at an absolute definition. David Bradshaw
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Post by sixshot on Feb 29, 2016 15:11:26 GMT -5
I thought back in the late 60's, early 70's the days of wildcatting were done, what was possibly left? I just didn't think it was possible to ever come up with another cartridge that hadn't already been dreamed up that could be popular, wow, was I ever wrong! Now, stirring the pot just a bit, its been the same way with powders, I never dreamed we would ever need more new powders & look whats on the shelf, its just nuts! There must be at least 30 or more just in pistol powders that have came on the scene since the 70's that none of us had ever even heard of that are house hold names now. Don't think it will ever stop, either the wildcats or the new powders.
Dick
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