100 Yards & Iron Sights

[Cholla]

The type target is of the utmost importance. As seen in the third picture in my above post, I use a black inverted "T" painted on white background. The horizontal bar is used to keep elevation consistent by "resting" it on the top of the front sight and the vertical leg to keep windage consistent by aligning the front sight with this leg.

My biggest obstacle when attempting groups is I focus intently on the sight picture and tend to subconsciously loosen my grip.

Others have given some really advice regarding sight picture, etc.

Cholla

[bradshaw]

Steve.... nothing against a pistol rest if that's what tickles your springs. A bench rest is a STATIC device. To shoot a powerful revolver from a rest, snug the barrel forward of its balance. With a barrel of, say, 7-1/2" or longer, nestling the barrel is critical to follow-through. Am not specifying 7-1/2" as a demarcation; rather as an illustration of revolver balance. When firing from a rest, a revolver which balances forward, needs support forward.

Lee and I have talked about doing a piece on shooting revolvers from a rest. Just as there is nothing to be gained fighting recoil, it is a disaster to fight the rest, whether it be one or two bags, sandbag, V-block, some sort of pedestal. A rest is about GRAVITY; take advantage.

SETTLE IN. Stay settled. Keep fresh oxygen in your eyes. Which means, don't hold too long. It is a common misperception that trigger squeeze is a prolonged hold-your-breathe zone. The squeeze is made at a moment of stillness. Oxygen bathes stillness. Without oxygen, muscle goes into tremor. Your body can wait longer than seven seconds for its next breath, but yours eyes won't like it. Without fresh oxygen focus turns to fuzz. Bad scene. Therefore, let vision control squeeze.

OXYGEN, the arbiter of squeeze. Hold too long, eyes blur. Between two things there is no choice. Sharp sights or fuzzy? Oxygen=sharp. Oxygen debt=fuzz.

AIM requirers delegation of duty: MIND on target; EYE on sight. Focus target just long enough to verify and paste in brain pan. After that, focus zips to front sight, organizes the sight picture, and liberates the squeeze.

Since you have a rest, Steve, perhaps you will supply photos of your cradled guns.
David Bradshaw

[steve]

David, I did try and get a picture of how I shoot. It just doesn't work, I can't hold the camera and take a pic of how I shoot at the same time. The best way I can describe how I hold the gun when I shoot is; I basically try to mimic page 78 in Bowen's book.

I was getting eye fuzz, I just figured it was lack of me concentrating.........I had no idea it could be lack of oxygen, because I was holding my breath between shots. Never in a million years would I have even thought of that.

Edited to add....If anyone has an idea/or knows of a 180-200gr GC bullet mold design specifically for the Ruger .357 max. with the max nose to crimp length, I'd love to hear about it.

[Joe S.]

I'm at the fristration stage Lee was talking about. Learning the 357 Max.



Zoomed in to show my jacketed group. I fired one shot at a steel plate i think and either pulled a shot or only shot 5 total... This was a while ago.


And another. I believe one shot was just north of the paper, lost in a maze of bullet holes so i cant claim it... 4 out of 5 on the paper. Again this one has been a while. Havent shot the Max in a few months.

[sixshot]

David, when you mentioned earthquate McElroy that brought back memories of a guy from California who shot a 2" 458 in an XP100 back in the 70's. I shot a match with him somewhere in Utah, I think it was Filmore. Anyway, it was summertime & he was shooting the chickens on stage one from the creedmore position & everytime he pulled the trigger there was a dust trail all the way to the chicken, then a very loud thump. It was a real hoot watching that dust trail for 55 yds like a little tornado after every shot. Had to be the same guy. The targets were mild steel & he was really working them over with those big slugs!

Dick

[2 Dogs]

Joe S, do not allow yourself to get frustrated. All that does is inject tension into your shooting system which just makes good shooting all but impossible. It is what it is. I try to learn something from each range trip.

I remember one day going to the police training range with a ammo can full of 38s and my Bianchi Cup revolver. I was working on the 25 yard barricade event. It is not a difficult station to shoot, and easily cleaned. I remember shooting for a good while and worrying the center out of the x ring on the target. Right side, left side, dump brass, reload, reset the timer, do it again and again. After I got tired I picked up my gear and turned around to see the Training Division Commander who had been watching me for some time thru the glass. He asked me why I was shooting that station over and over when he could see I could obviously clean the target. I explained to him that I wasn't practicing my shooting, I was practicing my ability to be focused and relaxed.

My point is, don't fight yourself.

[bradshaw]

Dick.... there were a number of XP-100's chambered for one or another modified .458 Winchester. The first Silhouette Digest credits an early silhouetter named Stevens as the first to shoot steel with a .458. These guys were not the wiry type like a horse jockey; John Towle in New Hampshire shot his arm-wrench XP .458 at the Inaugural IHMSA International Champiuonships in Tajunga Canyon, 1977. Reckon you watched either Stevens or Earthquake McElroy in action.

As I had lead-footed it across the country with little more than a brass grip Super Blackhawk, an M-29 6-1/2", and a Colt 1911, and a trunk load of bullets, and shot the 1977 championship with the brass grip SBH, John Towle lent me his spare XP-100 so I could shoot Unlimited with something besides my sweet little Super Blackhawk. Towle had herded himself into the tent----a circus tent----of silhouetters loading ROCKS & DYNAMITE in those days. As you know, the rams were set full-foot, often on stands that swayed around like a whore in church, soaking up shock like a sponge.

The .358 Winchester loaned me by Towle had an 11-inch Douglas barrel, with six cuts of Mag-na-Porting. Up on the ram line, I got down prone next to Edd Page of El Paso. Sideblast from the .358 blew the cowboy hat off his head. Rounds from Towle's .358 shook the wispy Edd page like a gypsy carpet; he jumped up to ask line officer Ray Chapman (the first World Combat Pistol Champion) if he could continue on a following relay. Of course, said Ray.

Joe S.... your honesty with yourself is certain to advance your skill. 4x5 shots on that little piece of paper @ 100 yds, along with the looser groups, suggests a diet of stretched shooting will payoff. CONSISTENCY is a product of RHYTHM, and rhythm is a product of technique x time on the range. DRY FIRE a few minutes every day. Pays off big time. As to flyers, most thrown shots start at an itchy trigger finger. Spastic motion on the trigger throws shots farther, and throws more of them, than any other corruption of technique. While fuzzy sights widen groups, fuzzy groups are more consistent than results from jerking the trigger.

Breath controls nerves. Oxygen settles nerves under pressure. To shoot a group, start with oxygenated eyes. Dry fire will help coordinate the elements.
David Bradshaw

[serialsolver]

For me keeping the correct grip, prefect sight picture then trying to hold my breath is to much muilty tasking. All that seems to add stress. When you are breathing there is a natural pause when exhaling. This is when I want the trigger to release the hammer. When I'm shooting at long range and the gun is steady with the perfect sight picture as I exhale I press the trigger as if I was pressing the trigger and air out of the lungs at the same time so that all the air and hammer go at the same time. I want the shot to happen during the natural pause at exhale when the only movement is the hammer and my beating heart. Pressing the trigger during exhale will help you no matter how hard your breathing. If it's from running across a parking lot or up a hill to the top to see that big buck. No matter how hard your chest is heaving and your heart is pounding let the shot brake during that natural pause at exhale.

[aus71383]

I'm not an experienced long range pistol shooter. I do have some experience shooting "long" range with iron sights (USMC) and usually when I go out to the local gravel pit to shoot, I tend to aim for unbroken clay pigeons sitting on the hill ~80 yards off. Some things I learned from shooting rifle and pistol in the service probably don't transfer over well, but others seems universal to me. I have a feeling a lot of guys know and take for granted certain details, and some others may just not know what they are or aren't doing.
For me, the biggest aid in accurate/relaxed shooting is natural point of aim. The goal is to position your body so that when you raise the gun to shoot, it is on target without any muscling or twisting. If you are shooting isosceles, this is more or less pointing your hips and shoulders towards the target. Small adjustments can be made by shuffling the feet around. I do not squeeze my shots off when I'm at the "natural respiratory pause" unless I'm in the sitting or prone position and have adjusted my position to allow that respiratory pause to be when my sights are on target. From a standing position, at full breath I am usually high, and at full exhale I am low. I pause my breathing mid-exhale to achieve the elevation I need to hit the target - or at least get close to it.
So - Natural Point of Aim. It definitely applies to both rifle and pistol shooting, and I think it's very important.

Mr. Bradshaw and some others in this thread are clearly very experienced shooters and understand some of the science that goes into shooting. I consider myself lucky to have found this forum, where knowledge and experience is shared so freely. Thank you gentlemen.

I'm putting a couple links below that I think directly relate to long range handgun shooting, although they are directed towards close range and faster shooting with a semi-auto pistol. At the very least I think you will find them interesting, and I hope you can glean something beneficial from them. I stumbled across these over the past week, and have no affiliation with the companies represented.

Travis Haley Venti 100 shot Drill - There are portions of this drill that absolutely don't apply to single action revolver shooting. There are also portions that I think would contribute to good shooting habits regardless of the weapon being used. www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi5eZqc9H7I

Ron Avery and Travis Haley TriggerStripe Drill - The fast shooting of this drill clearly don't transfer. However - the overall concepts I think apply to any discipline. www.youtube.com/watch?v=Azb3q8wOrV4

Ron Avery Weaver vs. Isosceles - I grew up instinctively shooting handguns in the Weaver stance. It worked fine for me during pistol qualifications in the service. It's obvious from a scientific standpoint that the Isosceles stance is superior for recoil management - I just never cared. In any case I found this explanation interesting. www.youtube.com/watch?v=GewbIC2P8Hw

Lee - thank you for creating this forum. I hope this doesn't count as a thread hi-jack. I will have to get some paper targets and take a camera with me to the range soon.

[jayhawker]

I must differ about so called Weaver vs Isosolese for recoil control. Actually, Jack Weaver used the isosolese. But Cooper taught the modified Weaver specifically for recoil control with a 1911 with hardball. Today, the "weaver" is assumed to be the Mod. Weaver. jack Weaver authored a piece in American Handgunner several years before passing, and he said that he had not used what was then considered the "Weaver".

[hoover]

All this is good stuff. The breathing aspect really opened my eyes, and cleared them. The only thing I might add, that seems to help me, is follow thru. After the shot, continue to hold your sight picture, or try to. I'm getting some sub 2" groups at 50 yards. After a few more sessions, I will try 100 yards. I tried paper plates at 50 yards today. My eyes want to stay focused on the plates, rather than the front sight, and the groups showed it, 4-5" . Try as I might, I could not get my eyes to transition to the front sight. Went back to my 2"X2" squares. Open to any suggestions.

[2 Dogs]

Hoover and I were just laughing today. Normally for me, OXYGEN OXYGEN, is something my minds screams while putting on my shoes!!

[paul105]

Jeff,

Try a plain sheet of cardboard (18" x 18" or larger). Aim at the middle of the blank sheet of cardboard -- you will find that there is nothing else to look at except the front sight.

I was out Friday to try the challenge. Old eyes being a problem, I started with a 7 1/2" Super Redhawk with a Bushnell Elite 2x - 6x, set on six X. Was shooting some ammo I loaded several years ago (21.5gr H110, 270gr Speer JFP, Fed Mag, New Top Brass). I had a 4" x 4" stick-on target on the 24 x 24 plain cardboard for scope use. Had a decent rest and could actually call my shots, but never could get better than 5" groups with that combo. Would get several really tight then a flyer or two (even though the shot "felt good").

Had a partial 20 rnd boxof Fed Factory 240gr JHPs in the shooting bag. Removed the scope and put a couple of sighters on the 100 yrd cardbord to see POI (the 3 Fed sighters grouped better than the 270s). There is a 3' x 3' steel plate at a lasered 330 yards. Have shot that target before and knew pretty much where to hold with the POI at 100. Had a range buddy spot for me and managed to put 3 of 4 rounds on the plate even with a pretty heavy cross wind that was gusting, so Kentucky windage was a little bit of a guess.

Also had a FA97 5 1/2" .357 Mag with me. Over time it has shown a preference for 158gr Horn XTP JHPs over 15.0gr of A2400 (actual chrono right at 1,400 fps). The cardboard was pretty well shot full of holes (diff aim points with scoped SRH trying to tighten thins up) by the time I got to the .357. Anyway, managed to place 5 in 4" at 100 yds with a green fiber optic front -- as always, might have been a fluke and needs to be reshot for verification.

This is what FAs fiber optic front looks like (pic is of orange, I was shooting green on the .357).



I have good days and bad days (wind, angle of sun, light, gun, bad burrito for luch, phase of the moon, etc.), so i'll try this again soon with a couple of other guns that I know are capable of superb accuracy. Will also try some different front sights. Will also take some pictures (was just too lazy to make the walk to change targets this time).

Paul

[mod70]

Airpistol, shoot a good quality airpistol, and decent pellets, stay on the front sight until you hear the pellet hit, you will have follow thru, and call, and confirm every shot. You will be suprised of your shooting at any range.
John Roberts

[dan]

Good shooting last year I start shooting 100 yards. Now all my shooting is 100 yards you have to qualify at our club and get your membership card signed.